Editing Talk:Baked beans (section)

== Baked beans  ==

Common ingredients are common among several countries so individual countries do not need t be listed  does anyone want every countries ingredients for each countryy listed [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 07:29, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
:: There are sources in the article comparing UK and American versions of the dish. The info box accurately reflected that. The UK and America are the two main consumers of the dish, and they have two different expectations with the dish. This is covered in the sources. The content should be put back in the info box. Additionally, baked beans are traditionally served as a hot dish. I don’t think it’s appropriate to call it both a hot and cold dish from a historical point of view. Some people eat cold pizza but that doesn’t make it a cold dish.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 07:40, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
:::It is incorrect to put them in the info box it's not needed and both countries use all those ingredients for baked beans depending on what recipe is being used, if it's canned or made from scratch, the manufacturer of canned beans .   The content should not be in the nxo as it's not correct and it's not needed .   The hot and cold I agreed with.  The IP address who put cold does not appear to have pasted again  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 07:44, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
::::There I disagree. The sources are clear about distinct changes made to the dish after it arrived in the UK, and differences in the canned products between the two countries. Heinz baked beans in the US is not the same as Heinz baked beans in the UK. They have different sauces. The sources also point out different culinary traditions around this dish in the two countries. There are regional variations in the US historically. That said, we live in a global society so undoubtedly the world is not so divided as it once was, but when actually looking at food traditions across time there are clear lines made in the published sources. Best.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 07:52, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::You are free to disagree, you are limiting yourself to the view point of just looking at tins of baked beans while ignoring the fact that both countries have been doing them with many of the ingredients for centuries.  The article is about baked beans in general.   There is a separate page for heinz baked beans.  The country info should remain off the infobox.   Feel free to put it on the Heinz baked beans page if you feel like it belongs there  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 07:57, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::::No. We’ve been through this already, and this is continuing with your Eurocentric POV pushing. Baked beans is a Native American dish with ancient origins and not related directly to the cassoulet (which is French by the way, and not English). It predates the cassoulet by thousands of years. Heinz introduced a canned version of the dish in the foreign foods section of Fortnum and Mason in 1886. Nobody in the UK was familiar with it until then (navy beans were not part of the typical British diet or widely available in Europe at that time). While certainly some have made the argument that the dish is cassoulet like; they are not related to each other as the dish has its roots in the ancient world before colonization and Heinz was an American company taking it from its American roots. Tying the history of this dish into anything pre-1886 in the UK is just false; although undoubtedly some elements of cassoulet cooking influenced colonists who adopted the dish from Native Americans as a form of fusion cooking in the New World.

:::::::In the UK, the vast majority of people eat canned beans made by Heinz. Heinz introduced the dish to Europe and is the number one selling baked beans manufacturer in the world with a 70% market share globally. The UK is their main consumer, and most people in the UK only know baked beans in that form. In the UK Heinz baked beans are essentially synonymous with the dish as that is what most people in that country eat. You really can’t talk about this dish without talking about Heinz because it is the main product most people eat when they consume this dish globally, and the company had a major impact on the way the dish is consumed world wide. They are responsible for exporting the dish outside of the United States, and making it a globally known dish. The New England colonial dish that became known as baked beans was made in [[beanpot]]s unique to America that resemble Native American pottery. This cooking method with specific pottery was never exported to Europe because they were introduced to this dish as a mass produced canned product, and were taught to consume it in that fashion. Best.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 08:50, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Did you cut and last this from a different discussion.  There is no eurocentric pushing no one mentioned cassoulet.  The subject is baked beans and ingredients used in general on the info box. No one is comparing the honey ham and mustard beans that the British cooked in pots centuries ago with onions to native beans as they used fava beans .  People eat many types of beans in the UK they are made from scratch and include many different ingredients.  No one said you can't me tion heinz baked beans but if you want to put the differences between one companies beans when made in separate countries you should use the correct page which would be the Heinz baked bean page  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 09:08, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::Sigh, I see the attempt to lump all of these ingredients into the dish as internationally an accepted form of the dish as again appropriative and misleading and again Eurocentric as its attempting to bring in cassoulet type ingredients not extant in the original dish from New England or in the original canned products sold in the UK. Tomato sauce for example isn't typically used in the United States, and was a UK addition to the dish in the 20th century according to many of the sources cited in this article. Recipes of course don't exist in a vacuum and people are playing with recipes all the time as that is what humans do, but if we are going to present the classic version of the dish from New England it certainly would not include tomato sauce. This is a problem with a reductive info box that can't handle complex and changing and varied ideas with nuance. We should either restore the country names or delete the info box as inaccurate.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 16:39, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::its not lumping him into.the same dish.  It's one dish that uses  a variety of these general ingredients depending on how henfish is being made. Both countries use all the ingredients mentioned in the dish. It is not Eurocentric at all. It's not attempting to bring in cassoulet ingredients by mentioning that onion is in the dish.  It's an.article on baked beans in general and the info box just has general ingredients used in the dish and since several countries use all the ingredients mentioned in various forms of the dish. If you want the page to just be the new England version of several centuries ago then there would be no need to mention any countries or tomato sauce.  You would just put what was in the original new england recipe [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 16:57, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::::That just isn't true. Canned baked beans in America don't use tomatoes, and our traditional recipes don't include them either. I'm sure at some point some Americans may have made them with tomato sauce, but it isn't typical and it would be viewed as a novelty. It is a UK convention of the dish and is not an ingredient used in the classic New England recipes. The info box presents the dish as coming from New England. New Englanders don't use tomato sauce in their baked beans.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 17:02, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Van camps a popular brand do.   All of the ingredients listed in main ingredients are used in baked beans.  If you are so bothered by the inclusion of tomato sauce being on the list on ingredients because the very first recipe didn't use it but later ones did then remove tomato sauce from main ingredients.there is no need to list individual countries on the infobox since several countries use all those ingredients ...there isn't just one brand of bakes beans now or one recipe.  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 17:46, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I think it is better to present that type of information in the body where it can be presented in context and with nuance in relation to the history of the dish. I had to look up Van camps as I've never heard of it. Bush's Best Baked Beans has an 80% market share of all canned baked beans in US market and they don't make one with tomato sauce. Other larger producers like Heinz (US market version) and grocery store home brands like Walmart don't use tomato sauce. It appears that Van Camps has one version with tomato sauce but many others without; making that version somewhat of a novelty food item in the US market. I do have a problem with presenting tomato sauce as a typical ingredient in the United States as multiple sources point out it is not typical in America and is more often associated with the UK version of the dish. It certainly isn't part of the classic version from New England, and we shouldn't make it appear so in the info box by listing that locale as the origin and then listing ingredients not used in New England baked beans. It's confusing and can lead to misinterpretation.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 18:08, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::As I said all the ingredients that were listed in the main ingredients in the info box are used in both countries as there is not just one make and there are beans made from scratch as well as canned  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 18:18, 18 May 2025 (UTC)