Editing Talk:Jewish holidays (section)

== Founding myth ==
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your edit does not reflect the academic consensus.  Passover is a celebration of the Exodus, the founding myth of the Israelites' slavery, not a celebration of the Israelites' slavery.  I'm not trying to address the topic in this article, I just want to add 6 words, "the Exodus, the founding myth of"... to accurately represent the academic consensus.  "The Exodus" is linked so people can read about it on the Exodus page.
[[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 16:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
: I more or less agree with the IP editor, that this is not the right place for such details. Especially since "Exodus" is linked, and this information is available there. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 22:14, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
::I meant that "The Exodus" is linked in the 6 words that I added and that the IP editor removed.  "Exodus" is not currently mentioned at all.  At the least the Exodus should be mentioned and linked. [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 02:45, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
::: I hope [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jewish_holidays&diff=906391283&oldid=906316973 this edit] resolves all the issues, to both your and my content. 15:01, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
::::The academic consensus is clear that the Exodus is a myth, regardless of who has faith in it.  You wrote that those who celebrate it do not consider it a myth, we do not know that, but I would be interested to see a source saying that if you have one.
::::I literally just added 2 words, "myth of".  Do you have a reason to exclude these 2 words that I provided a source for?  Some people may not have faith in the academic consensus is not a valid reason to exclude it. [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 01:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Fajkfnjsak}} It is unnecessary to add "myth" to every page or mention of the Exodus. That is [[WP:UNDUE|undue]] and not how Wikipedia handles religions or religious holidays. [[User:Wallyfromdilbert|Wallyfromdilbert]] ([[User talk:Wallyfromdilbert|talk]]) 01:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::Hi, weird that you're following me around wikipedia, but anyways now that you're here-  Clearly this is within the confines of WP:UNDUE as there is overwhelming academic consensus that the Exodus is a myth.  I linked a source and can add more if you'd like.  It is literally a 1 word addition. [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 02:07, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Many things are mythical, but mentioning that fact every time an event is named is unnecessary. Why do you feel this is so important to add the term "myth" to mentions of Exodus? There is are reasons why the Wikipedia article is titled [[The Exodus]] and you had to pipe link your addition. [[User:Wallyfromdilbert|Wallyfromdilbert]] ([[User talk:Wallyfromdilbert|talk]]) 02:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::: what is a pipe link?
:::::::: It's not like I'm trying to address it anywhere but the actual Exodus page.  I just want it referred to as it is, with 1 word. The Exodus myth, as opposed to just The Exodus.  The academic consensus is clear anyways, so why avoid that one word? [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 02:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::A [[WP:PIPELINK|pipe link]] is when you change the name of a Wikipedia link. The vast majority of academic sources do not refer to Exodus as "the Exodus myth", including the source that you provided. When appropriate, they mention or discuss its historicity, as does Wikipedia. [[User:Wallyfromdilbert|Wallyfromdilbert]] ([[User talk:Wallyfromdilbert|talk]]) 02:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::I see, thanks.  Normal link is fine with me.  I am just saying that it is consensus that it is a myth.  Why avoid 1 word?  There is consensus, and its just 1 word.  [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 03:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::The academic consensus is against calling it "the Exodus myth". [[User:Wallyfromdilbert|Wallyfromdilbert]] ([[User talk:Wallyfromdilbert|talk]]) 04:03, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::The academic consensus is clear in that it is a myth.  It is not "against calling it The Exodus myth".  The academic sources call it a myth.  The question is how do we write this wikipedia article.  The 1 word, myth, accurately labels it in accordance with what the academic consensus says it is.  Why do you want so badly to remove 1 word?  To not describe what it is according to academic consensus?  [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 04:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::What sources use your suggested term? [[User:Wallyfromdilbert|Wallyfromdilbert]] ([[User talk:Wallyfromdilbert|talk]]) 04:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::You mean myth? - The source that I posted that is still on the page, for starters. [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 04:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::It does not use the term "the Exodus myth" and it does not connect Exodus being a myth to the Passover holiday. [[User:Wallyfromdilbert|Wallyfromdilbert]] ([[User talk:Wallyfromdilbert|talk]]) 04:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::It clearly says its a myth.  Since "its" means the Exodus, this is where I got "the Exodus myth".  But if you prefer it, I am fine with "the Exodus, the founding myth..." which if you look at the edit history for the page is what I originally posted before the IP editor reverted it.
::::::::::::::::As far as the connection to Passover, the article spoke about the Exodus, but without mentioning the name, before I edited it. [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 04:35, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Your proposed change is undue and unnecessary. The source you added doesn't even mention Passover. [[User:Wallyfromdilbert|Wallyfromdilbert]] ([[User talk:Wallyfromdilbert|talk]]) 04:41, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
At the least it's clearly not undue.  There is clear overwhelming academic consensus for it being a myth.
As far as unnecessary, its literally 1 word. and it reflects academic consensus.
I do not see why you want so badly to avoid that 1 word? [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 04:44, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
: And I do not see why you want to add it so badly. I gave you good reasons not to have it: 1. it is present in the linked article [[The Exodus]] 2. that article is not called [[the Exodus myth]] for a reason. 3. in the sentence "Passover commemorates [[the Exodus]], the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt." the word myth is out of place, as those who "commemorate" it do not see it as a myth. I think your proposed change is [[WP:POINTY]], and am not charmed by it at all. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 08:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
::{{ping|Fajkfnjsak}} Please understand that the descriptions of holidays here are brief and intentionally incomplete; they are intended to show how each individual holiday fits into the overall scheme of holidays in Judaism. They are not supposed to provide exhaustive description of each holiday; note that each and every holiday's individual page is individually linked here. Emphasizing "myth" <u>on this page</u> is, as {{ping|Debresser|p=}} notes, simply POINTY; it is no more appropriate here than describing all of Judaism (or Christianity or any other religion) as a "myth" <u>on this page</u>. I'd say that one thing you could change, if this section is bothering you that much, is that you can change the copy in the next line from "...in commemoration of the fact that..." to "...in commemoration of the '''narrative stating''' that..." But this page is not the page to debate the "myth"-ness of this topic. [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 16:05, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:My response to Debresser is the exact same as last time. Faith does not eliminate academic consensus.  We do not know that those who commemorate it do not view it as myth.  Feel free to provide source to the contrary.  Not trying to charm you.  Trying to edit wikipedia to reflect academic consensus.
:Steven - "exhaustive description"? "debate the myth-ness"?  I wanted 1 word. About something that is not debated in academic circles at all.
:However since you both dislike "the Exodus myth" as it clearly feels like a change to the title of the Exodus to you, how about this:
:"the Exodus, the founding myth of the Israelites' liberation from slavery in Egypt ..."   This will make clear the Exodus is the name, and the founding myth is just the academic consensus. Thoughts? 
: And I will make that edit, thanks for pointing that out Steven. [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 22:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
:: As to "the Exodus, the founding myth...": '''No. Repeat: No.''' Please read my previous post. That edit would not be POINTY or UNDUE everywhere on Wikipedia; as far as it goes, when I mouse over "the Exodus here", that very phrase appears in the pop-up box. But it is POINTY and UNDUE '''here'''.
::* Again: <u>this page is not about the Exodus</u>. The only reason we even need to go so far as to describe the Exodus ''on this page'' as related to the liberation from slavery is that the observances of the holiday are closely tied into that point. But whether it is a founding myth or not is entirely irrelevant to what this page is trying to accomplish, namely: that Passover is one of the Jewish holidays, and that the distinguishing factor is that its observance is closely tied to the story of the liberation from slavery. That's it. The nature of the story doesn't matter here.  The academic consensus doesn't even matter here, because <u>this page is not about the Exodus</u>. 
::* We're not particularly arguing the point as to whether there is academic consensus. We're mostly trying to tell you that for the purpose of the description here, it adds nothing, potentially distracts from the rest of the description, and is not useful. 
::* You clearly have an agenda; that much is obvious from your edits at [[Passover]], [[The Exodus]], [[Resurrection of Jesus]], and others. You have been successful at placing your point about this being a founding myth in the lede of both of the first two articles. I think you ought to take that and be happy with it. 
:: To be sure, we appreciate your taking this up on the talk page once there were objections. The civility is to be commended, especially given how uncivil so much of the world is these days. Still, there is no consensus for this type of change on this page. [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 14:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
:::Well I don't agree with you about the myth edit but you're right in that there is no consensus for the edit.
:::Can I change it to how you just worded it?
:::"...is closely tied to the story of the liberation from slavery..."
:::ie -  can I write "the Exodus, the story of the liberation..." [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 03:42, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
:::: I think it is perfect as it is now. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
::::: Me, too. Just move on. [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 14:47, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
:::{{ping|StevenJ81}} - You suggest this very edit earlier with a different sentence, you describe the Exodus this way for a clear reason, and now you do not want the edit on this other sentence. Why? [[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 03:56, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
:::: [[WP:DEADHORSE]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:56, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

This sentence is clearly misleading as to what the Exodus is:<br>
"Passover commemorates the Exodus, the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"<br>
the Exodus is not the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt<br>
it is a myth, biblical narrative, narrative, story, etc<br>
we need to pick one so that we do not imply that it is a historical narrative<br>
How about this:
"Passover commemorates the Exodus, the biblical narrative about the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"<br>
[[User:Fajkfnjsak|Fajkfnjsak]] ([[User talk:Fajkfnjsak|talk]]) 22:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

:Does anyone else have a comment here? Fajkfnjsak has been indeffed, and I would propose to close this discussion. [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 01:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)