Editing Talk:Tropical Storm Alma (section)

== Merge Alma and Arthur? ==

Both articles use the same rainfall map. Both storms were related, very much like [[Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal]], and I imagine a similar lead could be used. Both articles are on the short side, but if they were combined, then both articles could cover the flood event, regardless if it was Alma, or Arthur, or indeterminate. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  19:58, 25 January 2026 (UTC)

:No. They are not the same system and their impacts do not overlap. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 20:17, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::Alma reformed into Arthur, and both articles have significant impact overlap (Central America). ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  21:09, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::The remnants of Alma were absorbed into a tropical wave that later became Tropical Storm Arthur.[https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL012008_Arthur.pdf] Neither Alma nor Arthur's TCR states that there were overlapping impacts. This merge isn't necessary; both articles are better off separate. If size is an issue, one could always expand. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 22:52, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Exactly, the remnants of Alma led to the generation of Arthur. And as for NHC and overlapping impacts, check the last page of the TCR. Both storms produced an area of rainfall across Central America. When did the rainfall in Honduras/Guatemala stop being from Alma and start being from Arthur? Contemporary news sources, [https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/06/05/2003413883 such as this one], connect both storms, as did [https://reliefweb.int/report/belize/paho-weekly-report-07-jun-13-jun-2008 PAHO]. [https://smn.conagua.gob.mx/tools/DATA/Ciclones%20Tropicales/Ciclones/2008-Alma.pdf Alma's report] from SMN says how the storm drew moisture over Mexico. I get keeping them separate, but I think putting them together builds a stronger narrative for the flood event (yes, I called it a single event even though it was two storms). ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  02:00, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::[https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/EP012008_Alma.pdf Alma's TCR] and [https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL012008_Arthur.pdf Arthur's TCR] state that the tropical wave that became Arthur did not originate from Alma's remnants. The tropical wave only absorbed it. That does not make them one continuous system. No fatalities or damage were attributed to both cyclones per the [https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/EP012008_Alma.pdf Alma TCR] and [https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL012008_Arthur.pdf Arthur TCR]. Rainfall compromised little of Alma and Arthur's effects, so there is minimal overlap. Merging both articles would blur the line about which fatality and damage was from which cyclone, and suggests that these storms were one system. That would be a bigger problem than a weaker narrative for the floods. Creating a paragraph about the flood event caused by each cyclone and using it in both articles is a better alternative. There would be fewer problems; no merge is required. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 02:51, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::Again, I point to [[:File:Alma Arthur (2008) TRMM rain 27may-4june08.jpg|this image]] showing the rainfall over Central America/Mexico from May 27th to June 8th, not to mention the Alma TCR saying that the storm was part of a "broad monsoon-like flow" and a "large cyclonic gyre". It sounds exactly like the [[Central America gyre]] that produced Amanda/Cristobal. Even though the wave was involved in Arthur's development, it's clear that Alma had a major role in Arthur's development, and most sources mention Alma's remnants as part of Arthur. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  16:22, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support''' per Amanda/Cristobal as well as [[Cyclones Judy and Kevin]], another similar instance where impacts happened in the same place in very quick succession trying to determine which is which would be more difficult by doing separate articles for each system. Combined makes it easier. '''''[[User:MarioProtIV|MarioProtIV]]''''' (<sup>[[User talk:MarioProtIV|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/MarioProtIV|contribs]]</sub>) 23:06, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::This comment repeats the same points Hurricanehink raised and I addressed. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 16:01, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Weak support''', as long as we keep very, very, VERY clear that these two are considered separate entities. I like the idea of adopting the same precedent set by Amanda/Cristobal's case, as long as it doesn't lead to that [[Talk:Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal/Archive 1|whole debacle]] again. Otherwise, I oppose the merging. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 23:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
::Is there an actual benefit from doing this? Otherwise, this argument is just [[WP:LIKECONTENT|personal taste]]. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 00:03, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:::If you look on my recent discussions regarding merging different systems into one article, like [[Talk:Cyclone Vardah#Requested move 17 January 2026|Vardah/ARB 02]], [[Talk:Hurricane Ida and Nor'Ida#Requested move 17 January 2026|Ida/Nor'Ida]] and [[Talk:Typhoon Nuri (2014)#Merge November 2014 Bering Sea cyclone?|Nuri/Post-Nuri]], you'll see that I'm not fond of this kind of move, but I agree that merging the articles could improve the coverage of the impacts, especially the ones that happened on the time between Alma's dissipation and Arthur's formation. That's why I support it, conditionally. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 00:25, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
::::So you're repeating Hurricanehink's points, which I addressed. Noted. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 00:31, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::I just think that his arguments hold better than yours, I don't see anything wrong with that. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 00:37, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' same as the much earlier one, not the same storm... are you just crazy...? [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:06, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Its just weird but I now hate this damn idea and I now '''strong oppose''' this merge... [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::To the above temporary account, [[WP:NPA|no personal attacks]] - "are you just crazy". It would be more helpful if you created a username if you wanted to participate in these discussions so you have a stable username instead of a temporary account. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  06:41, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry! But just look at the ''How about...'' discussion up there!! [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:46, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::People were discussing 18 years ago whether to merge the articles. It makes sense to have the discussion again. Again, please create a user name if you're going to participate in these merge discussions so you can have a stable user name instead of a temporary account. Thanks. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  06:50, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::Stop mentioning about the account creation or else I'll do this: 🖔 [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 12:33, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::I would say this again: they ''are'' not the same storm. According to many sources, a tropical wave absorbed ex-Alma before becoming Arthur. So yeah... I would strongly oppose the merge. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 12:40, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Two points. First, if you want to be taken seriously on talk pages, then you should make a username. I'm going to mention it every time I see a temporary account commenting on a merge discussion, because it's very unusual for a new editor to get involved in such a discussion. There is a problem with sockpuppets and trolls on Wikipedia. Second, the proposal would be to call it [[Tropical storms Alma and Arthur]], making it (to quote [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista above]]) ''very, very, VERY clear that these two are considered separate entities''. They are separate storms but they cover the same event, as evidenced by the relationship between the two storms, the overlapping impacts, and the shared rainfall map used in both articles. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  17:58, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::Disagree cuz they're ''NOT'' the same storm! (sorry if there's a personal attack) [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 02:37, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::But they're part of the same event, [[Tropical storms Alma and Arthur]]. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  04:15, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::Go ahead if you want, idk what to say again.
::::::::::But Arthur was an off-season Atlantic tropical storm, so you know what would put in the "see also" section, just don't mess up with the merged article after all. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:07, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::The see also section would include ATL-EPAC crossover storms, and List of Central America hurricanes. Is that your only reason for opposing? [[User:Hurricanehink mobile|Hurricanehink mobile]] ([[User talk:Hurricanehink mobile|talk]]) 23:22, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::::Not the same storm I repeat. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 03:33, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::::The same narrative though. [[User:Hurricanehink mobile|Hurricanehink mobile]] ([[User talk:Hurricanehink mobile|talk]]) 03:38, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::By naming the article [[Tropical storms Alma and Arthur]] and structuring it similarly to other articles like [[Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal]], [[Cyclones Judy and Kevin]] and [[Cyclones Rona and Frank]], it wouldn't claim that these two are the same system. The reader wouldn't receive such false impression if the article is handled as the precedents set above. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 02:48, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
:'''Strong support''' I would have to agree with this. Since Alma has reformed into Arthur, I would say to put this as Tropical storms Alma and Arthur. Also, I get that both Alma and Arthur are good articles, but it would be fine to merge them together. [[User:Bronco3706|Bronco3706]] ([[User talk:Bronco3706|talk]]) 17:31, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:'''Strong support''' per the following: [[Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal|Amanda/Cristobal (2020)]], [[Cyclones Judy and Kevin|Judy/Kevin (2023)]], [[Cyclones Rona and Frank|Rona/Frank (1999)]], and [[Cyclones Gulab and Shaheen|Gulab/Shaheen (2021)]]. I also support a merge of [[Hurricane Agatha|Agatha]] and [[Tropical Storm Alex (2022)|Alex (2022)]] per everything. [[User:Iseriously|Iseriously]] ([[User talk:Iseriously|talk]]) 22:08, 18 March 2026 (UTC)