Editing Eurovision Wiki:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard (section)

== Patokallio children ==

Should the names of [[Pasi Patokallio]]'s children be included; i.e., should [[Special:Diff/1342113667]] be reverted? <small>(cc. {{ping|VampaVampa}})</small>{{pb}}I personally do not see how this adds to understanding Pasi Patokallio enough to go over the presumption for privacy—they're not known to be public figures, though his son has the same name as someone involved in the [[Archive.today]] controversy so they might be the same person; [https://www.techspot.com/news/111296-wikipedia-may-remove-almost-700000-links-amid-archivetoday.html TechSpot] and that site's operator made this connection but not any of the other 10 sources reporting on the events—so I think having "Children: 2" in the infobox should be enough. [[User:Aaron Liu|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#0645ad">Aaron Liu</span>]] ([[User talk:Aaron Liu#top|talk]]) 01:22, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

:For clarity, I was the one who added the information. I think the conditions under [[WP:BLPNAME]] are satisfied: family members in question are "reliably sourced"[https://web.archive.org/web/20061010023730/http://www.finland.ca/doc/en/embassy/PP1cv.html][https://web.archive.org/web/20160913085829/https://www.dundernews.com/pdf/Canberran-Uutukainen-2013-02.pdf]{{rp|9}} and may well be "relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject" due to their public activities (the caution stemming from the fact that the identity between Jani Patokallio of the Archive.today dispute, who tried to link his adversary to Russia, and the ambassador's son is pending proper confirmation; the other son appears to hold a role with responsibility for Ukraine at the [[Crisis Management Initiative]][https://cmi.fi/2025/11/14/cmi-contributes-to-eu-mediation-discussions-and-presents-recommendations-to-eu-high-representative-kaja-kallas]). Per the same guidance, there is no requirement to remove the names if reliably sourced. Multiple biographies of public figures specify names or occupations of children, and this seems to be particularly the case when the children undertake some form of public activity that may lead to notability or a career that is not entirely dissimilar to the parent's (some examples: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Straw#Personal_life][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Kennedy,_Baroness_Kennedy_of_The_Shaws#Personal_life][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Garton_Ash#Personal_life][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Cruddas#Personal_life][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Taaffe#Personal_life_and_death][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Healy,_Baroness_Healy_of_Primrose_Hill#Personal_life]). [[User:VampaVampa|VampaVampa]] ([[User talk:VampaVampa|talk]]) 04:59, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:Per sources provided, I'm at "exclude" here, the CV has a hint of [[WP:BLPPRIMARY]] IMO, and that + https://dundernews.com/ doesn't add up to "widely disseminated" IMO. Ping to @[[User:Gyrovagueblog|Gyrovagueblog]] if you wish to comment. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 08:57, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for the ping. I have no strong opinions either way on this particular issue, but I would appreciate some extra BLP eyeballs on [[archive.today]] and its Talk page. [[User:Gyrovagueblog|Gyrovagueblog]] ([[User talk:Gyrovagueblog|talk]]) 09:31, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:::I would exclude. I am always wary when an editor adds family members by name without adding anything to indicate why the names are important. What good does it do that "two sons" doesn't do just as well? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 09:35, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Agreed.  My default is not to name family members unless they're themselves notable.  That's the policy for infoboxes, and I think it generally holds well for article bodies as well. [[User:BubbaJoe123456|BubbaJoe123456]] ([[User talk:BubbaJoe123456|talk]]) 13:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:BubbaJoe123456|BubbaJoe123456]] Can you link me that policy for infoboxes? [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:58, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::::::It's in the documentation for the [[Template:Infobox_person]]:
::::::*Parents: Names of parents; include only if they are independently notable or particularly relevant.
::::::*Relatives: Names of siblings or other relatives; include only if independently notable and particularly relevant.
::::::[[User:BubbaJoe123456|BubbaJoe123456]] ([[User talk:BubbaJoe123456|talk]]) 15:02, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks. So per writing there, not [[WP:N]] is not an infobox-dealbreaker for parents, children, spouses and partners, but for other relatives. I still think we should exclude the names under discussion. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 15:11, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::::::::The infobox template doc states for children: {{tq|Typically the number of children (e.g., <code>3</code>); only list names of independently notable or particularly relevant children. Names may be preceded by a number to show total children and avoid implying that named children are the only offspring. For multiple entries, use an [[Template:Infobox person#Inline lists|inline list]]. <em>For [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of names|privacy reasons]], consider omitting the names of living children, unless notable.</em>}} [[User:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#066293;">'''Schazjmd'''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Schazjmd|<span style="color:#738276;">''(talk)''</span>]] 15:47, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::From the examples of politicians I brought up above, it would seem that names of children are frequently mentioned in articles when present in reliable sources and considered to belong in the person's bio. It could have to do with the fact that notable politicians (or diplomats, for that matter) tend to appear with their families in public. The nature of the sources cited above would support this - one is published by an embassy, the other is sourced from an embassy. [[User:VampaVampa|VampaVampa]] ([[User talk:VampaVampa|talk]]) 23:33, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:BubbaJoe123456|BubbaJoe123456]]: I beg to differ. Main article space is not governed by infobox rules. Infoboxes tend to mention only notable people by name, e.g. doctoral students. [[User:VampaVampa|VampaVampa]] ([[User talk:VampaVampa|talk]]) 23:25, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]]: I have in fact noted above why the names may be important. [[User:VampaVampa|VampaVampa]] ([[User talk:VampaVampa|talk]]) 23:23, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Please stop pinging me. It is unnecessary and annoying.
:::::The reason you gave was bogus. The edit you made and the sources you used said nothing about the children's public activities. If you think the names of the children are relevant because of their public activities, document those activities and source them. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 00:45, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
::::::Not only that but the reliable sources must connect the children and their activities with their father. Otherwise we have synthesis and [[WP:UNDUE]] weight issues. [[User:Morbidthoughts|Morbidthoughts]] ([[User talk:Morbidthoughts|talk]]) 20:32, 18 March 2026 (UTC) 
::@[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]]: The "widely disseminated" proviso in BLPNAME applies to any "private individual", whereas the "reliably sourced" and "relevant to complete understanding" conditions deal with immediate family members specifically. I think the more specific guidance should be followed. The CV is published on an embassy website, thus effectively doubling as an official biography. [[User:VampaVampa|VampaVampa]] ([[User talk:VampaVampa|talk]]) 23:42, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:::I see no reason not to see the sons as private individuals from the WP-pov. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 05:55, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:::The supporting sources like the CV and the Finnish connection are both embassy documents aka [[WP:BLPPRIMARY]]. [[User:Morbidthoughts|Morbidthoughts]] ([[User talk:Morbidthoughts|talk]]) 20:32, 18 March 2026 (UTC)