Editing Eurovision Wiki:Village pump (policy) (section)

== Adding pre-debut members of music group ==

There are 2 pages that in conflict: [[TLC (group)|TLC]] and [[NSYNC]]. Both have pre-debut members who never released any song as the group member. The problem is, some Wikipedia editors list them as past members. In this case, Blackpink's page should also include Miyeon, BTS with Supreme Boi, Big Bang with Jang Hyunseung, SNSD with Soyeon, and [[Innosense]] with [[Britney Spears]].

Now, what is the consensus? [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 14:18, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

:I don't see the problem. As long as the group has maintained the same name, then those pre-fame members are still former members of the group. There should definitely be a clear delineation of when a person was a member of the group in the prose and there may be special organization or footnotes in lists or tables, but they still need to be in there. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 17:28, 23 February 2026 (UTC)
::Reading the further responses, I see some possible distinctions to draw. A group of musicians may come together and practice. At some point, they try out for bookings and print materials to advertise themselves. Eventually, they begin booking shows. They finally receive a recording contract and release their debut album. People may come and go at any point in this sequence. My position is that anyone who is presented to the public (either in marketing materials or actual performances) should be counted as a member. Where in this sequence do the people you mentioned fall? --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 13:35, 25 February 2026 (UTC)
:I don't know exactly why the pages for TLC and NSYNC have the very early members listed, but in the case of the K-pop groups listed; just absolutely no. You'd need to add over half a dozen "members" just for SNSD alone, because leading up to their debut, their management was swapping potential members in and out at seemingly a moments notice. There were at least four different line-ups prior to debut, with as many as twelve members in them. And that's just the ones we know of, I'm sure there were plenty more, are we gonna add every SME trainee from that period as a potential past member? Which brings me to a further point: good luck finding reliable sources any of this, because every thing I could find in my research for this reply was terrible fansites, or "sources" known to be unreliable. Pre-debut trainees are just that: trainees. They are ''not'' official members.[[User:DragonFury|DragonFury]] ([[User talk:DragonFury|talk]]) 22:28, 23 February 2026 (UTC)
::I mean, the actual final plan of SNSD was 10-member group before Soyeon left voluntarily. 
::But yes, pre-debut members should not be included since it's not official. I also don't know why they including pre-debut members on NSYNC and TLC. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 22:34, 23 February 2026 (UTC)
::And to add another point; [[Twice]] was formed from the TV program ''[[Sixteen (TV program)|Sixteen]]'', so do we add the seven people not selected in the program as past members? Because if so, I'd like to see someone make the same argument for [[Kep1er]] and the <u>'''NINETY'''</u> contestants from ''[[Girls Planet 999]]'' who weren't selected for the group. [[User:DragonFury|DragonFury]] ([[User talk:DragonFury|talk]]) 22:38, 23 February 2026 (UTC)
::With TLC, it's because 1) she's mentioned in reliable sources as 2) ''the founder of the group''. Similarly with NSYNC, it's because 1) Jason is mentioned in reliable sources as 2) a formative member of the group. We should default to sources here. Is someone reliably claimed to have been a member of the group? Then they should be included. Now, should they always be in the infobox? Should they never be in the infobox? No. That's editorial judgement, and it depends on the band. And I don't think a recording contract or "official" debut release is a good enough rule of thumb. Someone could be an important member of the group without that. Some groups release music without a contract. And judging "importance" here is often arbitrary, anyway.--[[User:3family6|3family6]] ([[User talk:3family6|Talk to me]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/3family6|See what I have done]]) 21:03, 14 March 2026 (UTC)
:It should be whatever is reflected in reliable sources. If reliable sources describe those people as actual, bonafide former members of the band then sure.{{pb}}For most of the examples you listed, however, this wouldn't be the case... they were just trainees in the same company along with the people who eventually became the final lineup. Agencies add and remove people from lineups all the time before they actually release any music. It doesn't mean they're a member of the band. [[User:RachelTensions|RachelTensions]] ([[User talk:RachelTensions|talk]]) 01:41, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
::so you agree that we should not include pre-debut members? [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 19:44, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
:I'm going to quickly reject "never released any songs as a member" as the dividing line, because bands can have a healthy life as a performing group before they become a recording group. There were no [[The Beatles]] songs released with [[Stu Sutcliffe]] on them until he was dead over thirty years (if I recall correctly), but he was a key player in their pre-record-contract days. -- [[User:NatGertler|Nat Gertler]] ([[User talk:NatGertler|talk]]) 02:16, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
::[[The Beatles]] does not include Sutcliffe, Pete Best, etc in the infobox -- instead they add a link to the former members section, so that would be a solution for this kind of issue. <span style="font-size: 80%;color:blue"><sup>~</sup>[[User:Hydronium Hydroxide|Hydronium<sup>~</sup>Hydroxide]]<sup>~[[User talk:Hydronium Hydroxide|(Talk)]]~</sup></span> 04:18, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
:Based on your contribution, this discussion seems to originate from a content dispute involving a temporary account that has since been blocked. As such, it is unclear why the argument is being revisited here rather than being handled on the relevant article's talk page, or whether it is intended to validate that blocked account's viewpoint. Regardless, there is general mutual understanding among most editors that only individuals who officially debuted and/or released work with the act are listed as members. Those involved solely during pre-debut stages, such as auditions or trainings, are typically excluded and do not carry long-term encyclopedic significance in relation to the act. Such information, if sourced reliably, may instead be included in the individual's biographies instead, should they have an article here. This standard has been applied consistently across comparable articles, with limited exceptions that are likely the result of per-article consensus. '''<span style="color:red">—</span> 🧧🍊 [[User:Paper9oll|<span style="background:red;color:gold;padding:2px;border-radius:5px">Paper9oll</span>]] 🍊🧧 <span style="color:red">([[User talk:Paper9oll|🔔]] • [[Special:Contributions/Paper9oll|📝]])</span>''' 03:16, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
::So the consensus is only official debuted members are listed, right? [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 07:33, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
:::For clarity, when I refer to "general mutual understanding", I'm specifically referring to South Korean musical acts only. That wording is intentional and is applied in conjunction with [[WP:VERIFY]]. As for anything else, refer to the last sentence in my earlier reply above instead. Additionally, it appears you are conflating two different categories of group formation. Certain Western acts where membership may be tied to founding history, name origin, or early lineup evolution are being treated as directly comparable to K-pop acts, where membership is defined through a formalized debut system and post-debut activity. Applying the same framework to both assumes a one-size-fits-all standard, which does not reflect how these industries function. Because of that conflation, comparisons such as invoking NSYNC to justify listing pre-debut trainees in K-pop groups are not particularly meaningful. For cases outside the K-pop context, exceptions and differing treatments may and or could already be accounted for on a per-article basis, or may not be, as noted previously. '''<span style="color:red">—</span> 🧧🍊 [[User:Paper9oll|<span style="background:red;color:gold;padding:2px;border-radius:5px">Paper9oll</span>]] 🍊🧧 <span style="color:red">([[User talk:Paper9oll|🔔]] • [[Special:Contributions/Paper9oll|📝]])</span>''' 08:25, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
::::I mean, “pre-debut” means before debut, right?
::::Before debut = unofficial. Does it mean the same everywhere, or does each country have its own definition of “pre-”? '''Doesn't matter'''. It’s still unofficial.
::::I feel like Wikipedia is turning into a Wiki Fandom now. Why are we including unofficial members / non-final members in the same list as the official members? Where’s the standard? What makes Wikipedia different from Wiki Fandom? '''It's unofficial''', like how I explain it better to you all. '''It's unofficial'''. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 11:07, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
Alright let's summon [[User:Binksternet]] who putting Jason Galasso as former member of NSYNC. In his defense, Jason's name was part of the NSY'''N'''C name (which is already changed to Lansen). [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 07:47, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
*Why are we having this content dispute on VPP?—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S&nbsp;Marshall</b>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:23, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
*:Because it's still about guideline. We are literally talking about an undisclosed guideline for hundred pages related to musical groups. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 11:27, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
*::No we aren't. This decision is fact-sensitive and needs to be made on a case by case basis. It depends on the person's contribution -- did they help write a key song, did they affect the band's development or sound, were they just a hired gun for a few shows? What do the sources say about them? There's no guideline to write. It's a simple matter of editorial judgement. If there's dispute then they don't go in the infobox ([[WP:ONUS]]).—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S&nbsp;Marshall</b>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:28, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
*:::'''Exactly''' that's why we are here. You think we are here for planning slumber party? No, we are here for discussion. And there is a big disagreement about whether people should include pre-debut members or not. Did those pre-debut members help the group? Put them on the History section, not the main infobox. That's the function of History section, to tell the story behind the group's creation. Infobox is only for the official information. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 19:42, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
*::::Official in whose eyes? Is there an office somewhere where a team of people decide who is official or not? Without answering that queston it's no good bolding "it's unofficial". There are so many differences between times, places, genres and individual bands that it's pointless trying to create a general rule that will apply to everyone. And it seems that by pre-debut you mean before the ''recording'' debut. Many notable bands don't make recordings until a few years into their careers. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 19:42, 25 February 2026 (UTC)
*:::::"official in whose eyes" oh my goodness. Wikipedia is using what kind of source for reference? <u>Reliable sources</u>, right. So it should be according to reliable sources. What those reliable sources say about "official members of the group"? [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 03:09, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
*::::::I would be surprised if there were reliable sources on American bands that made a distinction between "official" and "unofficial" in the way you describe, and I'd expect them to simply describe the people you're trying to remove as having been members of the band. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|talk]]) 03:23, 14 March 2026 (UTC)
*:::::Let's change the definition from "recording debut" to '''the time they sign the contract'''. That's the '''exact''' situation when the member is the official member of the group. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 03:13, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
{{od}}The sources talking about the formation of NSYNC all agree that the name of the band came at a time when bass singer Jason Galasso was in the group. Galasso was warmly received when he joined, with other group members telling him his voice was what they were finally looking for. It was this formation that was deemed ready for a record label deal. Timberlake's mother Lynn remarked that, with Galasso on bass, the group now sounded very much "in sync". They noticed that the final letter of each group member's name could be assembled to form the name NSYNC, with Jason supplying one of the letters. That means Galasso was a foundational member of the group. Supporting sources include [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Justin_Timberlake/8IXDEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&pg=PA17 a Timberlake bio book] and [https://people.com/who-was-the-original-fifth-member-of-nsync-8682270 a ''People'' magazine piece] on Galasso, calling him the "original fifth member of NSYNC". <p>I don't think there is any basis for artificially drawing a line for the purpose of rejecting Galasso. We should not be determining band membership on our own by saying "pre-debut" or whatever. That would be a violation of [[WP:No original research]]. The reliable sources should be telling us who are the group members. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 20:40, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

:I mean, he was the original member YES there are reliable sources telling that he was the original member. But that's not the point of this discussion.
:<br>
:Looking at the article, it literally says that he '''backed out''' the plan to debut, so he didn't sign the contract. After he left, the second N word for NSYNC is placed to Lansen (Lance Bass). So basically there's no Jason in the name, his name is replaced by Lansen. 
:<br>
:The point of this discussion is about '''whether we should include pre-debut members in the main infobox''', as pre-debut members are unofficial members. Why putting people that didn't sign the contract to the main infobox? They are unofficial. '''Unofficial'''. Should i repeat it for the third time? [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-41110-5|&#126;2026-41110-5]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-41110-5|talk]]) 03:07, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::Bands and groups exist before signing contracts and after losing contracts. --[[User:Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Khajidha|contributions]]) 13:13, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::You're creating an arbitrary, or at best industry-specific, definition of "official" and "unofficial" as a blanket rule for every band page. As has been said repeatedly, people can be members of bands without a formal contract or releasing a recording. We go by what sources say.--[[User:3family6|3family6]] ([[User talk:3family6|Talk to me]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/3family6|See what I have done]]) 20:53, 14 March 2026 (UTC)
:I think the problem with this is that the OP seems to think that one tiny genre of popular music, where terms like "unofficial" and "pre-debut" have some meaning, is representative of the whole. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 21:21, 14 March 2026 (UTC)