Editing Talk:Baked beans (section)

== Trimming redundant content and weaker sources ==

[[Special:Diff/1291048117]] was justified to correct the history (unlikely and no good sources to support a specific US origin; [[Algonquin people]] are mainly a Quebec Indigenous nation), with baked beans having probable French colonist origin in Quebec during the mid-1500s, partly influenced by [[cassoulet]] &ndash; a [[Cassoulet#History_and_etymology|14th century French dish using white beans.]] 

There were considerable redundant sentences, out-of-order history, duplicate links, and weak, inconsistent or offtopic sources. Re-establishing that version for discussion here. [[User:Zefr|Zefr]] ([[User talk:Zefr|talk]]) 21:10, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

:I've reverted again because it's Bold-Revert-Discuss, not Bold-Revert-Revert back-discuss. Also, the infobox changes were inappropriate for the subject of the article, which is the modern dish, not theoretical predecessors. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 22:14, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

::I support the revert. There are multiple book sources supporting that it is a New England dish including this [https://books.google.com/books?id=QIFTVWJH3doC&dq=%22baked+beans%22+%22native+american%22&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q=%22baked%20beans%22%20%22native%20american%22&f=false encyclopedia] in its entry on beans. [https://archive.org/details/foodencyclopedia0000roll/page/54/mode/2up?q=%22baked+beans%22 This food encyclopedia] published in Canada also calls it a dish from the Boston region. There are also lots of other book sources and newspaper articles used in the article that support this claim. No other sources call it a Canadian dish, and doing so is either a dubious fringe opinion or a misreading of the sources. I'll note, that many native peoples had a dish similar to baked beans going back to the ancient Mayan civilization according to the first encyclopedia, and it was a wide spread food throughout the Americas. The modern dish that became known as baked beans grew out of a cooking tradition in New England among settlers in that region who assimilated the native dish into their culture. See the many cited sources in the article, many of which are from reliable university or other academic presses. Best.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 02:12, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
:::According to other sources so did other countries and they came over and mixed them all together and made America.   However though the sources acknowledge both first people and the colonists that came over and are well established food historians you say you don't trust them in regards to one thing but are happy to with others.  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 05:51, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
::I removed the paragraph as it was originally a paragraph on how the English brought the sish over on the 17th century. Parts were removed and the paragraph then didn't state what the sources showed.   Since you say that it's well sourced  I have added ok what the actual sources state.  I trust you will take this up in chat and not edit war.  Did you read the three sources  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 05:56, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
* This article has some poor sourcing e.g. tabloid newspapers and tertiary sources. It would be better to use a [[WP:SCHOLARLY]] monograph such as this,[https://nyupress.org/9781479882762/the-truth-about-baked-beans/] which sets out why the designation of baked beans as a quintessentially "American" food is really a product of xenophobic/nationalist myth-making. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 04:30, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*:Yes I have removed several as the paragraph did not state what the sources said at all.   The tertiary source was put back by someone as well sourced as were two others it appears people don't read the sources before returning the information.   I have now added what the sources actually said so I will be accused of being eurocentric but I already said that weren't good sources and the paragraph wasnt correct  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 05:50, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*::In fact the more I look the worse it gets. Random web sites, fake publishers ... yeesh ... But then this is only a start classs article; a re-write is in order. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 05:55, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*:::Some of the changes made aren't what is stated in the sources  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 09:38, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*::::We should probably fillet out all the tertiary sources, since they just seem to be lazily regurgitating the origin myth later scholarship has identified. Wikipedia article should be based on [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 09:57, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*:::::Well tried that with two food historians who are America which lead to another 4 historians who were English but books by food historians apparently aren't a reliable secondary source  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 10:12, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*::::::I don't think the nationality matters. What are these other secondary sources? I see we have this[https://uncpress.org/book/9781469627144/americas-founding-food/] which is another of the [[WP:BESTSOURCES]] but it's been hobbled by bracketing with a self-published website and another tertiary source. This is one of the most bizarre cases of POV-pushing I've seen on Wikipedia (and that's saying something!) [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 10:16, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*:::::::keith staveley references 4 other books when he mentions the dish having a precursor from the UK in his book founding food The story of New England cooking I shall get a list.  That is not saying that native Americans didn't have a dish that turned into baked beans just that the British brought similar food across with them by obviously with fava beans as haricot beans weren't native  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 11:14, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*::::::::All we can do is summarise what the [[WP:BESTSOURCES]] say, and according to them (from what I have seen so far) the native origin story is a myth, and there is no evidence for it. I'm not seeing why this should be hard. The fact that secondary scholarship is being undercut with weak sources is a big problem. [[User:Bon courage|Bon courage]] ([[User talk:Bon courage|talk]]) 11:17, 19 May 2025 (UTC)
*:::::::::Ah the secondary sources I mentioned didn't make mention of native.peoples creating the dish just that the British brought across a similar dish.. yes we do need proper secondary sources  [[User:Sharnadd|Sharnadd]] ([[User talk:Sharnadd|talk]]) 15:32, 19 May 2025 (UTC)