Editing Talk:Psychogenic non-epileptic seizure (section)

== Merge Proposal of Non-Epileptic Seizures into Psychogenic Non-Epileptic Seizures ==

I propose merging [[non-epileptic seizure]] into [[Psychogenic non-epileptic seizure]] (this page). Medically, there is no such thing as a "physiological non-epileptic seizure," and NES and PNES are synonymous. There is not a single source in the entire section about "physiological non-epileptic events" in the NES article, and rest of it is just a less substantial restatement of this article. Most of the "physiological non-epileptic seizures" the NES page refers to are differential diagnoses for seizures (narcolepsy, tics, etc), not seizures themselves. They would better fit as a differential diagnosis subsection of this page, as is currently the case on the (epileptic) seizure page. [[User:RhodiumH|RhodiumH]] ([[User talk:RhodiumH|talk]]) 21:33, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

:[https://continuum.aan.com/doi/abs/10.1212/CON.0000000000000711 This source] discusses "Nonepileptic Episodic Events" besides PNES [[User:Tristario|Tristario]] ([[User talk:Tristario|talk]]) 23:24, 24 February 2026 (UTC)
::As they explain in their introduction, they do so because one of their focuses is on distinguishing "nonepileptic episodic events" from epileptic seizures, which means other differential diagnoses like convulsive syncope or narcolepsy are relevant. However, they never call any of those "non-epileptic seizures," and they acknowledge that the term generally refers exclusively to PNES: "It is important to note that the term nonepileptic episodic events is also often used interchangeably with nonepileptic seizures or psychogenic nonepileptic seizures (PNES), so caution should be taken to use precise terminology." [[User:RhodiumH|RhodiumH]] ([[User talk:RhodiumH|talk]]) 01:16, 25 February 2026 (UTC)
:::{{tq|and they acknowledge that the term generally refers exclusively to PNES}} They do not appear to be saying that in that sentence that you quote (they include an "or" in that sentence). 
:::However I've just had a look on pubmed and it appears "Non-Epileptic Seizures" almost always refers to PNES. There are [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Nonepileptic+Events%22&filter=pubt.review&sort=date various references] to "non-epileptic events" so perhaps the name of the other article should be renamed to that. 
:::On another note I think a more appropriate name for this article would be "Functional seizures" as that term [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22functional+seizures%22&filter=pubt.review&filter=years.2020-2026&sort=date seems more common] since 2020 than [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22psychogenic+non-epileptic+seizures%22&filter=pubt.review&filter=years.2020-2026&sort=date PNES since 2020] (and there isn't a consensus the cause is psychogenic) [[User:Tristario|Tristario]] ([[User talk:Tristario|talk]]) 02:44, 25 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Non-epileptic events is just another term for non-epileptic seizures, which is in turn another term for psychogenic non-epileptic seizures. No need for multiple articles on the same thing.
::::PNES is currently the official name of the condition per the DSM-5, so the article name should probably remain unless there's an official update. (I don't know why it's singular though --- the name is psychogenic non-epileptic seizure''s'', plural.) [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-12508-46|&#126;2026-12508-46]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-12508-46|talk]]) 22:50, 25 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::No, sources which discuss non-epileptic events, such as [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9647822/ this one], or [https://continuum.aan.com/doi/abs/10.1212/CON.0000000000000711 this one], discuss a variety of non-epileptic events besides PNES. Have you done a search of available [[WP:MEDRS|appropriate sources]] to see what they say about the term? 
:::::Also, I just checked, and PNES isn't the official name according to the latest version of the DSM-5 (DSM-5-TR). [https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/book/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787 It] has it under the heading "Functional Neurological Symptom Disorder (Conversion Disorder)" (and also lists various of the different terms that can be used to describe the seizures or attacks, but doesn't give preference to PNES) [[User:Tristario|Tristario]] ([[User talk:Tristario|talk]]) 23:53, 25 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::Are you reading those sources in their entirety, or just judging their contents based on their abstracts? Both make clear in their bodies that they use PNEE/NEEE to refer to differential diagnoses for epilepsy at large, including PNES and other differential diagnoses like syncope.
::::::"Nonepileptic episodic events of physiologic origin may include both '''neurologic and non-neurologic conditions''' '''that could be mistaken for epileptic seizures'''." 
::::::"Conditions that could be mistaken for" means "differential diagnoses." The standard on Wikipedia, and what is currently used on the [[seizure]] page, is to include a section on differential diagnoses within the page itself. I propose aligning the PNES page with sitewide standard by merging this page into a section of the PNES page listing its differential diagnoses, which, as your second link discusses, includes syncope, tics, migraine, sleep disorders, and others. That section could mention that these differential diagnoses are sometimes referred to as non-epileptic events during the diagnostic process, but, as you mentioned, NES almost always refers to PNES in a clinical setting.
::::::As for FND, that is a different condition with [[Functional neurological symptom disorder|its own page]]. PNES can be a symptom of FND, but not all FND involves PNES, and it wouldn't be appropriate to merge those pages. [[User:RhodiumH|RhodiumH]] ([[User talk:RhodiumH|talk]]) 18:06, 28 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Okay, so you acknowledge that the sources discuss non-PNES non-epileptic events then? 
:::::::There are three questions to consider now, I think. 1. Does the page "non-epileptic seizure" meet wikipedia's notability guideline? 2. Is it better treated as its own page? 3. If it shouldn't be its own page, what is the appropriate page to merge it into? 
:::::::For the notability question, per [[Wikipedia:GNG]] it has significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources, so it is notable. For 3, if it is merged what's the right, page, it seems merging into the differential diagnosis section of [[Epilepsy]] or [[Seizure]] would make a lot more sense than this page, as this page is not about non-epileptic events that aren't PNES. 
:::::::For whether Non-epileptic events should have its own page, I recommend reading the guidance at [[WP:PAGEDECIDE]], and then taking appropriate action based on that. If that page is merged, I don't think this is the right page to be merged into, so I don't think this talk page is the right place for discussion of that. [[User:Tristario|Tristario]] ([[User talk:Tristario|talk]]) 22:16, 28 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::Okay after some further thinking in my view we should have a page titled "Paroxysmal non-epileptic events" or "Non-epileptic events". Various reliable sources discuss it as a topic in its own right, so I think it's notable and worthy of its own page. It is, essentially, a page about a type of presentation, and there are various pages like that, such as [[Chest pain]], [[Fatigue]], [[Heartburn]] (there is also a separate page for [[GERD]]), etc. 
::::::::I agree that the term "Non-epileptic seizures" should redirect to PNES, however the name of the other page should be changed first, and then the term "Non-epileptic seizures" can be redirected to PNES. [[User:Tristario|Tristario]] ([[User talk:Tristario|talk]]) 00:11, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::I'm still a bit unsure about this so it may be worth seeing if you can get any input from [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine]] [[User:Tristario|Tristario]] ([[User talk:Tristario|talk]]) 00:13, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
:PNES include functional (neurologists use more often and so also epileptologists from ILAE )or dissociative seizures( ICH 11 , psychiatrists &nbsp;use more), under broader term FND (functional neurological disorders). This is the current consensus and therefore use of the terms in different subspecialities.
:Non epileptic seizures is much broader term including PNES&nbsp; and other movement or episodic disorders related to circulatory causes or sleep related disorders and others(physiological or pathological), which may not need Antiseizure treatment  but a different approach to diagnosis and treatment. These entities are not Epileptic seizures because they do not have any abnormal electrical discharges from the brain cells. Nearly 20-30% presentations to clinicians are of this nature and often confused as Epileptic seizures and wrongly treated with not much response.
:I feel the article on Non epileptic seizures should remain as such and contains PNES as a section and is broader than that topic so cannot be merged to it.
:A separate article on PNES exists which contains the more recently accepted terms like functional or&nbsp; dissociative seizures and should be linked to this article from all other places wherever it may exist. Again PNES ( which may resemble epileptic seizures)also links to FND under which it is an important subsection and integral part besides other functional disorders which may present differently from epileptic seizures. [[User:NandanYardi|NandanYardi]] ([[User talk:NandanYardi|talk]]) 10:09, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
::I agree. I think the page for PNES should be retitled to functional/dissociative seizures since this is what the ILAE has proposed to be the new term for this condition. I think it makes sense to have separate page called non-epileptic events (currently called non-epileptic seizures) where the differential diagnosis for seizure-like events that are not epileptic can be reviewed. [[User:JF1987|JF1987]] ([[User talk:JF1987|talk]]) 15:37, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
*Oppose the merge as per the same reasons as before. Non epileptic seizures are a group of conditions. PNES is one single condiction within that group. Why try to confuse things. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1; background:#FFFFFF;">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 13:03, 3 March 2026 (UTC)
*:I agree [[User:JF1987|JF1987]] ([[User talk:JF1987|talk]]) 18:53, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
*:I agree. Thank [[User:NandanYardi|NandanYardi]] ([[User talk:NandanYardi|talk]]) 10:44, 6 March 2026 (UTC)