Editing Talk:Johnson solid (section)

== My proposal for structured tables to replace the list. ==

I see that this page used to have much more extensive tables, and that those have been removed in favor of a very plain numbered list. This is my proposal for a middle-of-the-road scheme of tables grouping the polyhedra into logical families, without bloating the page too much:

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
! 
! colspan="3" | Pyramids
! colspan="3" | Cupolas
! Rotunda
! Cupola-Rotunda
|-
! 
| style="background: Violet;" | [[Tetrahedron]] "triangular pyramid"
| '''1''' <br> [[Equilateral square pyramid]]
| '''2''' <br> [[Pentagonal pyramid]]
| '''3''' <br> [[Triangular cupola]]
| '''4''' <br> [[Square cupola]]
| '''5''' <br> [[Pentagonal cupola]]
| '''6''' <br> [[Pentagonal rotunda]]
|-
! Elongated
| '''7''' <br> [[Elongated triangular pyramid]]
| '''8''' <br> [[Elongated square pyramid]]
| '''9''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal pyramid]]
| '''18''' <br> [[Elongated triangular cupola]]
| '''19''' <br> [[Elongated square cupola]]
| '''20''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal cupola]]
| '''21''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal rotunda]]
|-
! Gyroelongated
| [[Diminished_trapezohedron#Special_cases|Augmented octahedron]] "Gyroelongated triangular pyramid"
| '''10''' <br> [[Gyroelongated square pyramid]]
| '''11''' <br> [[Gyroelongated pentagonal pyramid]]
| '''22''' <br> [[Gyroelongated triangular cupola]]
| '''23''' <br> [[Gyroelongated square cupola]]
| '''24''' <br> [[Gyroelongated pentagonal cupola]]
| '''25''' <br> [[Gyroelongated pentagonal rotunda]]
|-
! bi-
| '''12''' <br> [[Triangular bipyramid]]
| style="background: Violet;" | [[Octahedron]] "Square bipyramid"
| '''13''' <br> [[Pentagonal bipyramid]]
| '''27''' <br> [[Triangular orthobicupola]]
| '''28''' <br> [[Square orthobicupola]]
| '''30''' <br> [[Pentagonal orthobicupola]]
| '''34''' <br> [[Pentagonal orthobirotunda]]
| '''32''' <br> [[Pentagonal orthocupolarotunda]]
|-
! Elongated bi-
| '''14''' <br> [[Elongated triangular bipyramid]]
| '''15''' <br> [[Elongated square bipyramid]]
| '''16''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal bipyramid]]
| '''35''' <br> [[Elongated triangular orthobicupola]]
| style="background: LightSkyBlue;" | [[Rhombicuboctahedron]] "Elongated square orthobicupola"
| '''38''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal orthobicupola]]
| '''42''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal orthobirotunda]]
| '''40''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal orthocupolarotunda]]
|-
! Gyroelongated bi-
| [[Trigonal trapezohedron]] "Gyroelongated triangular bipyramid"
| '''17''' <br> [[Gyroelongated square bipyramid]]
| style="background: Violet;" | [[Icosahedron]] "Gyroelongated pentagonal bipyramid"
| '''44''' <br> [[Gyroelongated triangular bicupola]]
| '''45''' <br> [[Gyroelongated square bicupola]]
| '''46''' <br> [[Gyroelongated pentagonal bicupola]]
| '''47''' <br> [[Gyroelongated pentagonal cupolarotunda]]
| '''48''' <br> [[Gyroelongated pentagonal birotunda]]
|-
! gyrobi-
|
|
|
| style="background: LightSkyBlue;" | [[Cuboctahedron]] "Triangular gyrobicupola"
| '''29''' <br> [[Square gyrobicupola]]
| '''31''' <br> [[Pentagonal gyrobicupola]]
| style="background: LightSkyBlue;" | [[Icosidodecahedron]] "pentagonal gyrobirotunda"
| '''33''' <br> [[Pentagonal gyrocupolarotunda]]
|-
! Elongated gyrobi-
|
|
|
| '''36''' <br> [[Elongated triangular gyrobicupola]]
| '''37''' <br> [[Elongated square gyrobicupola]]
| '''39''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal gyrobicupola]]
| '''43''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal gyrobirotunda]]
| '''41''' <br> [[Elongated pentagonal gyrocupolarotunda]]
|-
|}

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
! colspan="4" | Modified Prisms
|-
| '''49''' <br> [[Augmented triangular prism]]
| '''50''' <br> [[Biaugmented triangular prism]]
| '''51''' <br> [[Triaugmented triangular prism]]
|-
| '''52''' <br> [[Augmented pentagonal prism]]
| '''53''' <br> [[Biaugmented pentagonal prism]]
|-
| '''54''' <br> [[Augmented hexagonal prism]]
| '''55''' <br> [[Parabiaugmented hexagonal prism]]
| '''56''' <br> [[Metabiaugmented hexagonal prism]]
| '''57''' <br> [[Triaugmented hexagonal prism]]
|}

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
! colspan="4" | Modified Platonics
|-
| '''58''' <br> [[Augmented dodecahedron]]
| '''59''' <br> [[Parabiaugmented dodecahedron]]
| '''60''' <br> [[Metabiaugmented dodecahedron]]
| '''61''' <br> [[Triaugmented dodecahedron]]
|-
| '''62''' <br> [[Metabidiminished icosahedron]]
| '''63''' <br> [[Tridiminished icosahedron]]
| '''64''' <br> [[Augmented tridiminished icosahedron]]
|}

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
! colspan="4" | Modified Archimedians
|-
| '''65''' <br> [[Augmented truncated tetrahedron]]
|-
| '''66''' <br> [[Augmented truncated cube]]
| '''67''' <br> [[Biaugmented truncated cube]]
|-
| '''68''' <br> [[Augmented truncated dodecahedron]]
| '''69''' <br> [[Parabiaugmented truncated dodecahedron]]
| '''70''' <br> [[Metabiaugmented truncated dodecahedron]]
| '''71''' <br> [[Triaugmented truncated dodecahedron]]
|-
| '''72''' <br> [[Gyrate rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''73''' <br> [[Parabigyrate rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''74''' <br> [[Metabigyrate rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''75''' <br> [[Trigyrate rhombicosidodecahedron]]
|-
| '''76''' <br> [[Diminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''77''' <br> [[Paragyrate diminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''78''' <br> [[Metagyrate diminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''79''' <br> [[Bigyrate diminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
|-
| '''80''' <br> [[Parabidiminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''81''' <br> [[Metabidiminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''82''' <br> [[Gyrate bidiminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
| '''83''' <br> [[Tridiminished rhombicosidodecahedron]]
|}

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
! colspan="4" | Odd Ones Out
|-
| '''26''' <br> [[Gyrobifastigium]]
| '''84''' <br> [[Snub disphenoid]]
| '''85''' <br> [[Snub square antiprism]]
| '''90''' <br> [[Disphenocingulum]]
|}

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
! colspan="4" | Corona family
|-
| '''86''' <br> [[Sphenocorona]]
| '''87''' <br> [[Augmented sphenocorona]]
| '''88''' <br> [[Sphenomegacorona]]
| '''89''' <br> [[Hebesphenomegacorona]]
|}

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
! colspan="2" | Rotundoid
|-
| '''91''' <br> [[Bilunabirotunda]]
| '''92''' <br> [[Triangular hebesphenorotunda]]
|} [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 04:11, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

:This is going to invite people to augment the table cells with images and nets and Dynkin diagrams and who knows what else and we'll soon be back to the old crufty pre-trimmed state [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Johnson_solid&oldid=1214189872]. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 08:16, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
::The tables were bad, but the inclusion of images and nets was pretty important. The list of unpronounceable names by itself is kind of useless (except for the wikilinks).
::I think the most useful way forward is probably to merge [[List of Johnson solids]] into this article, possibly removing some of the columns from the table there. The content also doesn't have to be presented as a table per se; it could be separated into prose sections about various categories, with images and some textual summary about each shape presented as paragraphs of an ordinary article. –[[user:jacobolus|jacobolus]] [[user_talk:jacobolus|(t)]] 08:42, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:::@[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]], @[[User:Jacobolus|Jacobolus]]. Why not use these tables in [[WP:3TOPE]], like [[WP:ELEMENT]] does? [[User:Dedhert.Jr|Dedhert.Jr]] ([[User talk:Dedhert.Jr|talk]]) 02:46, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Would you please clarify what you mean by "use these tables in WP:3TOPE"? What would that mean for the Johnson Solid page specifically? [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 06:06, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::I am sorry for being off topic. But it is amusing the way you arrange those solids better than [[User:Dedhert.Jr/sandbox/5|mine]], which I need for exhibition of solids in the WikiProject. Like WikiProject Elements, I'd like to give a try to exhibit all polyhedral classes (Platonic, Archimedean, Catalan, Johnson, etc.) in WikiProject Polyhedra, prepending icon classes based on quality assessment. [[User:Dedhert.Jr|Dedhert.Jr]] ([[User talk:Dedhert.Jr|talk]]) 08:49, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::::::Oh I see! No need to apologize. Yes by all means, you may use this categorization. In fact, I'd love to contribute more to WikiProject Polyhedra, where can I get some orientation? [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 00:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Umm ... everything? Like sourcing and expanding to improve the polyhedral article's quality based on Wikipedia guidelines. [[User:Dedhert.Jr|Dedhert.Jr]] ([[User talk:Dedhert.Jr|talk]]) 06:37, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
::Well, that's not necessarily the case. And I'll argue, as others have, that the numbered list is totally useless as is.
::Here's another idea: What if I provide a single image showing all 92 solids, arranged in the same manner as these tables? That would satisfy the need for visual information, without ''crufting'' up the page too much. I'll work on that... [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 16:47, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Here's (a first pass at) the picture:
:::https://introscopia.github.io/images/The_Johnsons.png [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 19:51, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
::::I think such a figure (maybe a bit snazzier) would be good for a poster, but not very effective for a Wikipedia article illustration. A separate image of each shape is more effective/helpful for readers. –[[user:jacobolus|jacobolus]] [[user_talk:jacobolus|(t)]] 23:41, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::I'm open to notes with regard to 'snazz'!
:::::I will push back on your contention, though. I believe a broad overview of the set like this is perfectly effective and helpful! It's a solid compromise between the present, barren state, and the previous, overly cluttered situation. [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 06:12, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::::I do kind of like the idea of setting the scale of each image based on a common edge length though. –[[user:jacobolus|jacobolus]] [[user_talk:jacobolus|(t)]] 23:44, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]]. Why not merge all of those tables into one? Why not use the 92 solids illustration for the lede, instead? Why not merge the classifications of "Odd but ones", "Corona", and "Rotundoid" as miscellanea? The "rotundoid" is a new term considered as [[WP:NEOLOGISM]]. Have you tried to shrink the size of the table using horizontal and vertical scrolling bars? [[User:Dedhert.Jr|Dedhert.Jr]] ([[User talk:Dedhert.Jr|talk]]) 00:45, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
::::> Why not merge all of those tables into one?
::::small gains in space, and each part requires a different number of columns and rows, forcing them into one grid would generate a lot of awkwardness.
::::>Why not merge the classifications of "Odd but ones", "Corona", and "Rotundoid" as miscellanea?
::::To what end? Why reduce the specificity? Again, this categorization is what seems logical to me. The Coronas and Rotundoids are self-similar enough to be grouped together, and each of the Odds are totally unique.
::::>The "rotundoid" is a new term considered as WP:NEOLOGISM.
::::True. It's not in common use. I thought the construction was sufficiently neutral that it wouldn't warrant any argument. Rotund-oid: in the form of the rotunda, which is the criteria which connects them. What would you recommend instead?
::::> Have you tried to shrink the size of the table using horizontal and vertical scrolling bars?
::::I can't really tell what you meant here, sorry! [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 01:11, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
:Well folks, I went ahead and published the edit today with the tables and a diagram I put together. Open to feedback! [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 21:26, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Dedhert.Jr|Dedhert.Jr]]
:About your recent edits, I like the grouping of the 3 operations videos, however, due to how long the name of that polyhedron is, I get some really awkward text wrapping artifacts: https://i.imgur.com/T83lnws.png. Maybe we just omit the name?
:Secondly, the "thumbtime" parameter does do something:
:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Creation_and_usage_of_media_files#Setting_a_video_thumbnail_image
:I used it to try to ensure the thumbnail was showing the most useful frame of the video, such that the viewer can get an idea of what's happening without clicking to play it. [[User:Introscopia|Introscopia]] ([[User talk:Introscopia|talk]]) 01:27, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
::I don't see the point of performing this expansion unless we also redirect [[list of Johnson solids]] to here. We have a list of Johnson solids here, we have a list of Johnson solids there, we have a list of Johnson solids everywhere in all of the Johnson solids articles in the navbox at the bottom of the article, and in case you missed the lists of Johnson solids in this article and in [[list of Johnson solids]] we also have lists of Johnson solids in the navboxes at the bottom of this article and at the bottom of [[list of Johnson solids]]. Do we really need 96 different places where readers can find lists of Johnson solids? —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 02:14, 12 March 2026 (UTC)
:::I don't particularly mind to merge [[List of Johnson solids]] here. I'll propose to demote it. [[User:Dedhert.Jr|Dedhert.Jr]] ([[User talk:Dedhert.Jr|talk]]) 02:16, 12 March 2026 (UTC)