Editing Talk:Bar and bat mitzvah (section)

== Split proposal ==

I suggest that this article be split into two, or at least have seperate articles on the Bar and Bat mitzvahs ''as well'' as this overview article, because although they share part of their name, and nowadays are seen as different-gender versions of the same thing, they are actually two completely different things, with two very different histories.Althoughh Bar Mitzvahs have been around since ancient times, Bat Mitzvahs were only invented in the last 100 years or so for gender equality. 

{{quotation|"In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, many Jewish communities began marking when a girl became a Bat Mitzvah with a special ceremony. This was a break from traditional Jewish custom, which prohibited women from participating directly in religious services.

Using the Bar Mitzvah ceremony as a model, Jewish communities began to experiment with developing a similar ceremony for girls. In 1922, Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan performed the first proto-bat mitzvah ceremony in America for his daughter Judith, when she was allowed to read from the Torah when she became a Bat Mitzvah. Although this new found privilege did not match the Bar Mitzvah ceremony in complexity, the event nevertheless marked what is widely considered to be the first modern bat mitzvah in the United States. It triggered the development and evolution of the modern Bat Mitzvah ceremony."|<ref>http://judaism.about.com/od/lifeevents/a/What-Is-A-Bat-Mitzvah.htm</ref>}}
--[[User:Coin945|Coin945]] ([[User talk:Coin945|talk]]) 03:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

:This article just crossed my way and I saw this split proposal. I highly support doing this as the user above suggested. The two articles, Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah, should be separated - exactly like they are in nearly all other Wikipedias. Any comments/opinions? If no resistance is met, I'll do it myself some time this week. -[[User:Shalom11111|Shalom11111]] ([[User talk:Shalom11111|talk]]) 14:50, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
::I don't see the need or desirability for this. This article is not large, and the two articles would be largely overlapping, so best keep them together. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
:::I kind of changed my mind immediately after writing that sentence.. Looking at the article and considering what you said, I agree. Leave as is. [[User:Shalom11111|Shalom11111]] ([[User talk:Shalom11111|talk]]) 20:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
:Been a year, no consensus, so I removed the tag. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|::==( o )]]</small></sup> 17:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

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I would suggest strongly that this NOT be split, as reform/recon/cons communities also include and celebrate trans, gender-fluid, nonbinary, etc. teens, and this would just further marginalize and other these teens. You're completely correct of course that the history differs, but the history of a LOT of things was that first only men did it, then women, and more recently we specifically included and affirmed queer/nonbinary folks (with the understanding that before the 1400s-1600s and rampant colonization and Christian missionizing, most of the world was actually much more open with regards to gender expression outside of the binary). [[User:Triangular|Triangular]] ([[User talk:Triangular|talk]]) 20:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)