Editing Talk:Psychogenic non-epileptic seizure (section)

== Names ==

===Non-epileptic Attack Disorder===
I've created [[Non-epileptic attack disorder]] (NEAD) as a redirect to this excellent article. It appears that there is a US/UK split on terminology here, possibly resulting from the influence of Dr Tim Betts (former editor of the journal Seizure and advisor to Epilepsy Action). The two big UK charities have articles referring to NEAD rather than PNES ([http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/nonep.html Epilepsy Action], [http://www.e-epilepsy.org.uk/pages/articles/show_article.cfm?id=48 The National Society for Epilepsy]). Searches for NEAD on PubMed tend to show UK research.

I wonder if it we should mention "Non-epileptic Attack Disorder (NEAD)" in the article - otherwise folk may wonder if it is a different thing. I do think there is a subtle difference between NEAD and PNES. NEAD, in using the term "Disorder" appears to be more like a diagnosis/disease. Whereas PNES is a label for symptoms or the manifestation of a disease. (Apologies if I'm not using the precise medical terms here).

Ikkyu2 - The NSE online article mentioned above is written by Tim Betts, who is also the author of one of your references. I can't read the book. However, reading the online article I suspect the article and the chapter have much in common. If you agree, I suggest this article be added to either the External Links or perhaps in the References as an option for those unable to consult the book.

:I agree without any reservation. -[[User:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#2000C0;">ikkyu2</span>]] ([[User_talk:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]) 21:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
===Non-epileptic seizures===

[[Non-epileptic seizures]] is currently a redirect to this article. There is much confusion online as to whether NES is exactly equivalent to PNES. Many NES articles appear to be discussing only psychological causes. Some online articles discussing NES split them into  physiological causes and psychogenic causes. I guess the former group get less written attention and are less likely to be given the label "NES" for any length of time, since the patient is then quickly then diagnosed with (and treated for) their physiological condition. I suspect most NES articles are written by folk who are only interested in the PNES aspect.

The book "Differential Diagnosis in Adult Neuropsychological Assessment" ({{ISBN|0826116655}}) has a section headed "Non-Epileptic Seizures" on p109. This says "Non-epileptic seizures are seizures that do not original from a primary neurological cause in the brain. The two types of non-epileptic seizures are ''physiological'' and ''psychogenic''. Physiological non-epileptic seizures are caused by medical conditions in an organ system other than the brain, such as cardiovascular abnormalities, most commonly syncope. ...". I can't read any of the book "Non-Epileptic Seizures, 2nd edition" ({{ISBN|0750670266}}), but from its [http://www.intl.elsevierhealth.com/catalogue/title.cfm?ISBN=0750670266 contents listing] it does not appear to discuss physiological conditions.

I wonder if it would be good to promote [[non-epileptic seizures]] to being an article of its own. The contents of the "Other non-epileptic seizures" section could go there, as could some of the similar material in the "Diagnosis" section of the [[epilepsy]] article. Both this article and the epilepsy article could then have a "See also" to NES. The DAB link at the top of [[seizure]] could then point at [[Non-epileptic seizures]].

An even more radical thought would be to move [[seizure]] to [[epileptic seizure]] and make [[seizure]] into a DAB article. I would vote for that since I think it is best to be specific in the name of the article.

:I agree; I think all 3 of these articles should at least link to each other in their ''See also'' sections. -[[User:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#2000C0;">ikkyu2</span>]] ([[User_talk:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]) 21:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

:With regard to the idea of promoting non-epileptic seizures to its own article, I think that the things that are non-epileptic seizures divide into two categories: psychogenic seizures, and misdiagnosis.  People can shake during a syncopal attack, but that doesn't make it a seizure; it makes it a syncope that can be misdiagnosed as a seizure.  People can lose the thread of conversation during a migraine aura, but that doesn't make it a non-epileptic complex partial seizure; it's still a migraine headache.  People can shake all over due to non-epileptic myoclonus, but what's the point of calling that a seizure?  It's myoclonus.  These things are not seizures, unless you want to warp the word seizure to mean something that no one expects it to mean, and I don't think that's a particularly good idea.  -[[User:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#2000C0;">ikkyu2</span>]] ([[User_talk:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]) 01:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:I agree with what you've said, from a precise and medical point-of-view. Can I just check – do you no longer think it is useful to create such an article? I still think it is possible to have a [[Non-epileptic seizures]] article that carefully discusses the two causes (physiological and psychogenic) and does indeed mention that (after investigation and diagnosis) the former would then be no longer called a ''seizure'' by a physician, but he/she would then use the more accurate term appropriate for the actual underlying disease.

:However, I think the public use the term ''seizure'' in a more general sense than a careful physician would. In the medical world, with the need not to cause any confusion, the term has become exclusively associated with epileptic seizures. Some non-medical dictionary definitions are (excluding the act of taking something):

:*A sudden attack (as of disease) <an epileptic seizure> – ''Webster's''
:*A very sudden attack of an illness involving unconsciousness or violent movement – ''Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary''
:*OLD USE a sudden failure of the heart – ''Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary''
:*A seizure is also the sudden loss of control of your muscles and, often, the loss of consciousness, caused by certain medical conditions – ''Cambridge Dictionary of American English''
:*a sudden manifestation or recurrence of a disease, such as an epileptic convulsion – ''Collins''
:*a sudden attack of illness, especially a stroke or an epileptic fit. – ''Compact Oxford English Dictionary''
:*A sudden attack, spasm, or convulsion, as in epilepsy or another disorder – ''The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language''
:*The meaning "sudden attack of illness" is attested from 1779 – ''Online Etymological Dictionary''

:In my research for [[List of people believed to have epilepsy]], I have read many news stories where the words ''seizure'' or ''fit'' are used very casually. Any article should be clear on the medical profession's use of the term ''seizure''. At the same time, we must accept that people will call all sorts of things ''a seizure''.  --[[User:Colin|Colin]] 13:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
::I think I'm handicapped by my POV on this one.  I've studied this for so many years, and I'm so convinced I'm right :) , that it's hard for me to know exactly what the more typical encyclopedia reader would find useful.  -[[User:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#2000C0;">ikkyu2</span>]] ([[User_talk:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]) 00:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

===Pseudoseizures===
Whilst I agree the term pseudoseizures is unsatisfactory, we have perhaps yet to find the ideal term. See {{PMID|14630495}} for a study from the patient's point of view. The following statistics are also interesting:

* '''non-epileptic attack disorder'''  - 19 PubMed Articles, 281 Google results
* '''psychogenic non-epileptic seizures''' - 25 PubMed Articles, 477 Google results
* '''non-epileptic seizures''' - 92 PubMed Articles, 16,300 Google results, this recent book on Amazon: {{ISBN|0750670266}}
* '''pseudoseizures''' - 233 PubMed Articles, 25,100 Google results, this recent book on Amazon: {{ISBN|1904424279}}

The term pseudoseizures still appears in recent articles and books - it is not going away quickly --[[User:Colin|Colin]] 17:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, it redirects here (to PNES) in both singular and plural forms, and it's bolded in the introduction.  It's deprecated for good reasons - it's stigmatizing and strictly inaccurate.  I would say that it is going away about as quickly as the term 'epileptic idiot' went away in terms of describing the developmentally delayed  person with epilepsy, which is to say, no conceivable speed could be fast enough.  -[[User:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#2000C0;">ikkyu2</span>]] ([[User_talk:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]) 21:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
:This isn't just my own personal POV, by the way; although it happens to be, it is also clearly explained, in exactly the way it's explained here in the linked article from the Epilepsy Foundation on PNES.  -[[User:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#2000C0;">ikkyu2</span>]] ([[User_talk:Ikkyu2|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]) 02:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I often find it a shame that valid scientific names are deprecated because they may "connote" something in the uneducated eye of the beholder. There are many medical and scientific terms in pseudo- and people should be educated to understand what it means. [[User:Dadge|Dadge]] ([[User talk:Dadge|talk]]) 11:07, 14 August 2015 (UTC)