Editing Talk:Milton Keynes (section)

== Addition of table of 1991 demographic data: BRD discussion ==

Per [[WP:BRD]], I reverted [[user:Tweedledumb2]]'s addition of a table giving demographics from 30 years ago. This article is rated as GA, so additions as significant as this one need consensus to be added. I invite other editors to contribute. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 00:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

This is Tweedledumb2's proposed addition:
{| class="wikitable sortable"
! rowspan="2" |Ethnic Group
! colspan="2" |1991<ref name=":412">As UK Census data post 2001 is unavailable through the ONS website, it has been [https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/2011census/2011censusdata/censusdata18011991 recommended] to use archival census collection websites to obtain data. Data is taken from United Kingdom [http://casweb.ukdataservice.ac.uk/index.htm Casweb Data services] of the United Kingdom [http://casweb.ukdataservice.ac.uk/step1.cfm 1991 Census on Ethnic Data for England.] (Table 6)</ref><ref name=":422">Office of Population Censuses and Surveys ; General Register Office for Scotland ; Registrar General for Northern Ireland (1997): 1991 Census aggregate data. UK Data Service (Edition: 1997). DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.5257/census/aggregate-1991-1 This information is licensed under the terms of the Open Government Licence</ref>
|-
!Number
!%
|-
|
|
|
|-
![[White people in the United Kingdom|White]]: Total
!166,101
!94.19%
|-
|[[File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom_(3-5).svg|20x20px]] White: [[White British|British]]
| -
| -
|-
|[[File:Flag_of_Ireland.svg|20x20px]] White: [[White Irish|Irish]]
|3,614
|20.4%
|-
|White: [[White Gypsy or Irish Traveller|Gypsy or Irish Traveller]]<ref group="note">New category created for the 2011 census</ref>
| -
| -
|-
|White: [[Other White|Other]]
| -
| -
|-
![[British Asian|Asian or Asian British]]: Total
!5,982
!3.39%
|-
|[[File:Flag_of_India.svg|20x20px]] Asian or Asian British: [[British Indians|Indian]]
|2,861
|1.62%
|-
|[[File:Flag_of_Pakistan.svg|20x20px]] Asian or Asian British: [[British Pakistanis|Pakistani]]
|822
|
|-
|[[File:Flag_of_Bangladesh.svg|20x20px]] Asian or Asian British: [[British Bangladeshis|Bangladeshi]]
|694
|
|-
|[[File:Flag_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China.svg|20x20px]] Asian or Asian British: [[British Chinese|Chinese]]<ref group="note">In 2001, listed under the 'Chinese or other ethnic group' heading.</ref>
|667
|
|-
|Asian or Asian British: Other Asian
|938
|
|-
![[Black British people|Black or Black British]]: Total
!2,869
!1.62%
|-
|Black or Black British: [[British African-Caribbean people|Caribbean]]
|1,665
|
|-
|Black or Black British: [[Black British people|African]]
|523
|
|-
|Black or Black British: [[Classification of ethnicity in the United Kingdom|Other Black]]
|681
|
|-
![[Mixed (United Kingdom ethnicity category)|Mixed]]: Total
!-
!-
|-
|Mixed: White and Black Caribbean
| -
| -
|-
|Mixed: White and Black African
| -
| -
|-
|Mixed: White and Asian
| -
| -
|-
|Mixed: Other Mixed
| -
| -
|-
!Other: Total
!1,378
!0.78%
|-
|Other: Arab<ref group="note">New category created for the 2011 census</ref>
| -
| -
|-
|Other: Any other ethnic group
|1,378
|0.78%
|-
|
|
|
|-
!Total
!176,330
!100%
|}


* '''Reject.''' In my opinion, the addition should not be made, at least not in its current form and not without evidence of its accuracy. The article is already a long one and this data is of very limited interest to most readers, for whom only the current figures are useful. Its style is intrusive: the existing style is running text but this is a table (it also violates [[MOS:FLAGS]] but that is by the way). The geographic area it describes is unclear: the ONS has always struggled with its definitions of MK so data from 1991 would need very precise provenance if it is to be used. IMO, its inclusion would be [[WP:UNDUE]] and should be declined. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 00:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

:You are actually correct, thank you for the intervention against my sloppy editing, my plan was to add in the 1991 figures yesterday night and then today add in 2001 and the most recent figures of 2011. Checking the figures for population total on https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/, I believe the 1991 figures I added must equate to the actual [https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/admin/ unitary authority of Milton Keynes], (estimate of 178,300 in 1991, 249,895 in 2011) rather then what is used as the population total in this article as the [https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/cities/ua/ built up urban area] which totals to figure estimates listed on the website as 161,109 for 1991 (229,941 for 2011). 
:Regardless though on this point; 'The article is already a long one and this data is of very limited interest to most readers', would it be better to have a Demographics of Milton Keynes article? We already have articles for areas of less significance population wise like [[Demography of Slough|Slough]] for example. Thanks again, [[User:Tweedledumb2|Tweedle]] ([[User talk:Tweedledumb2|talk]]) 09:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
::An understandable mistake since there are seven places called Milton Keynes: (1) the Borough of Milton Keynes, which contains and is much larger than (2) the Milton Keynes BUA (aka urban area) which contains and is larger than (3) the 1967 Milton Keynes New Town designated area (which has long since been expanded out of); and (4) a BUASA that the ONS called (and citypopulation.de copied) "Milton Keynes" despite it excluding Bletchley, which has been part of MK since its inception); which contains (5) Central Milton Keynes, a civil parish that is the CBD of MK; and (6) Milton Keynes CP [which predates the new town] and which contains and is larger than (7) Milton Keynes Village. 
::If you want to create an article called "Demographics of Milton Keynes", go ahead provided that you are sure and make it very clear which of the seven versions of MK you mean and that you are consistently comparing like with like. But please don't but flags in tables without exceptionally good reasons - see [[MOS:FLAGS]]: British people of Bangladeshi heritage are British not Bangladeshi so to show the flag of Bangladesh looks like you are [[Great Replacement|making a political point]]. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 10:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC) 
:::These are fair points, thanks for the constructive comments and for the clarification on Milton Keyne's administrative and classification areas. This stuff can be a bit confusing at times!
:::I will also go ahead and remove the flags as I put flags on previous tables, they were originally there to just show ethnic origin and heritage but I can see what you mean where it can come off as a political message. Thanks again. [[User:Tweedledumb2|Tweedle]] ([[User talk:Tweedledumb2|talk]]) 11:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)


{{reflist talk}}