Editing Talk:Socialist Party (Ireland) (section)

== Political ideology not cited and no evidence given of why left-wing should have been removed ==

OK, so no idea why I'm the one that is expected to start this topic here on talk, as I'm not the one that is proposing making a change to what has long been stated on the main page. My position is that for the sake of neutrality the political position should be removed until evidence is given for whichever position should be stated and good reason why the other (left-wing or far-left) should be removed. Otherwise I would propose that it should go back to the way it long stood, as left-wing to far-left. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 19:07, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

:Simple. Read any of the links in the article for Trotskist or Socialist International. Come back to us if this blindingly-obvious isn't enough for you. [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 10:42, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

::Well, first of all the article that claims the party to be Trotskist appears to be an opinion piece by the fact the authors name is in the title. Secondly, that very same article actually claims the party to be left-wing. Yes Trotskism is an ideology that most would claim to be on the far-left, does that mean the party is, no. That, along with your implication that being a member of Socialist International somehow defines them as only being far-left is a [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] argument. If you were going to use that argument as a basis for the party's position you could also point to the ideology of democratic socialism, which is not widely regarded as a far-left ideology, or the fact that they are also a member of European United Left–Nordic Green Left, a left-wing group, but as I said already, you shouldn't as that is a synthesis argument. Your sarcasm and sense of self-righteousness is also highly unhelpful. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 17:29, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Laurel Lodged, this was already discussed above, and indeed 18 months ago. A list of books taken from a party's website can't be used as a "citation" that the party is Trotskyist. A sister organisation's ideology can't be used to infer that ''this'' organisation is Trotskyist. That's classic [[WP:SYNTHESIS]]. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:06, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

:An article on the party website about James Connolly compares him approvingly with Trotsky.<ref>http://socialistparty.ie/2018/06/bold-brave-undaunted-life-ideas-james-connolly/</ref> But I think that it is the Trotskyist method that makes a party Troskyist. This article mentions the theory of [[permanent revolution]], a classic Trotskyist idea. Another Trotskyist theme is found under "about us", on their website. They emphasise that only the working class can resolve society's problems. Their work on women's rights is better understood from reading Trotsky's "[[Transitional programme]]" which also explains statements such as "Recent events in Egypt, in Turkey, in Greece and in Brazil illustrate that mass movements and even revolution are on the agenda in the 21st century". They are taking the current understanding of the working class and leading them on to revolutionary conclusions. [[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 19:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

::And? When you have a reliable secondary [[WP:RS|source]] that describes the party as Trotskyist, then we can talk. Your interpretation of articles on their website is [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] and doesn't qualify for inclusion. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 20:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

:::How about this. A brief biography of Peter Hadden in the Encyclopaedia of Trotskyism On-line (ETOL). Peter was one of the founders of the Militant in Ireland. "committed to building the forces of Trotskyism and the unity of the working class, along with the other initial forces of the Irish Militant. After a few years working for the NIPSA union, he worked full time as a leading member of the National Executive of the Irish Militant/Socialist Party for the rest of his life, serving as a guiding influence on the party, both north and south."<ref>https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/hadden/index.htm</ref> His writings are collected in the ETOL [[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 22:16, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

::::Ask yourself "Is this a reliable secondary [[WP:RS|source]] that describes the Socialist Party as Trotskyist?" The answer in this case is obviously "No." Please do also ''read'' the linked [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] pages. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 22:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand why ETOL, which is a part of the Marxist Internet Archive, is not a reliable secondary source. [[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 00:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::This is just comical. Why is Bastun so determined to hide the party's Trotskist core? Should personal allegiances be declared here? [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 21:03, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

::::::Sorry, I don't understand why an ETOL biography of one person that fails to mention that the Socialist Party is Trotskyist is being advanced as a RS that the Socialist Party is Trotskyist... {{u|Laurel Lodged}}, I'm sorry, I refer you both again to my comment of 10th December, above.  ''Ask yourself "Is this a reliable secondary [[WP:RS|source]] that describes the Socialist Party as Trotskyist?" The answer in this case is obviously "No." Please do also ''read'' the linked [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] pages.'' It really is that simple. For the record, I am not, and have never been a member of the Socialist Party, AAA, the Socialist Workers Party, PBP, AAA-PBP, Solidarity, Solidarity-PBP, or Militant Labour. But it's nice to be accused of membership of this party on one talk page and a right-wing FG supporter on others, I guess I'm doing something right... ;-) Regards, [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 11:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Is it true they wouldn't let you join because they are for the workers not the pedants?[[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 20:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

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