Editing Talk:Titanomachy (section)

==Our local amateur theologist==
We have a problem with a User who objects to the ''italicised'' example in the following:
:"Other examples might include the wars of the [[Æsir]] with the [[Vanir]] and [[Jötunn|Jotuns]] in [[Scandinavian mythology]], the [[Babylonian]] epic [[Enuma Elish]], the Hittite "[[Kingship in Heaven]]" Kumarbi narrative, and the obscure [[Hadad#Hadad_in_Ugarit|generational conflict]] in [[Ugarit]]ic fragments, not to mention ''the [[Judeo-Christian]] rebellion-in-heaven tradition of the [[Fallen angel]]''.

Our fearless theologian asserts, in justifying his twice-repeated censorship (Christianists dislike parallels), "Fallen angels not in conflict with another generation of angels-like beings" and the spurious quibble "Fallen angels not in conflict with another generation of angels-like beings; angels do not have offspring." The theme is rebellion in heaven, between El and the angels of his creation (for the red herring re offspring of angels see [[Nephilim]] of course) and the parallels with other Near Eastern myths are perfectly familiar.

I have informed [[User:Carlaude]] that [[Wikipedia:Censorship|Wikipedia is not censored]]. Can some ''competent'' and ''unbiased'' editors provide the article the scholarly support this statement needs to foolproof it from further interference?--[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] ([[User talk:Wetman|talk]]) 06:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

:Please be civil... even if you consider yourself some sort of ''profesional'' theologist. Your interpation of whatever you call "the Judeo-Christian... tradition" is hardly critical to understanding "battles fought between... the Titans and... the Olympians," even if we all agreed on its accuracy. <sup>[[User talk:Carlaude|{{#if:|<span style="background-color:Carl;color:red;"></span>|<span style="color:red;">Carl</span>}}{{#if:|<span style="background-color:aude:;color:green;"></span>|<span style="color:green;">aude:</span>}}]][[User talk:Carlaude|{{#if:|<span style="background-color:Talk;color:purple;"></span>|<span style="color:purple;">Talk</span>}}]]</sup> 11:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

===Proto-apocalyptic texts vs. Paradise Lost===
I suppose we can't cite Satan's speech in the first book of ''Paradise Lost''? You can always try Jan Bremmer, "Remember the Titans!" in ''The Fall of the Angels'' (Brill 2004). A draft is [http://theol.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/root/2004/Remember/Bremmer-5Titanskm.pdf here], I'm not sure if it's the final text. The first couple of sentences establish Wetman's point quite well. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 18:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

:*There isn't any one "Judeo-Christian rebellion-in-heaven tradition," as you imply with the term. If you read the chapter in Neil Forsyth's "The Old Enemy," that you cite, you will see his total failure to agree with this text. My issue-- as before-- is not if the fallen angel(s) were successful or not, but what (if anything) considers it a rebellion of "another generation."
:*It is generally in the Pentateuch that scholars see any evidence of Israely theology being of a council of gods, with Yahweh at the head. Apocalyptic literature is typically thought to begun much later, like a 100 or 200 years BC. The Israely/Jewish texts that Forsyth discusses are between these to times and calls the texts (such as Isaiah 12) "proto-apocalyptic texts" (p.146). 
:*Forsyth agrees that Israely theology is maximally [[monotheistic]] by the time of Isaiah. This is ''contrasted'' with the idea of the "many gods," (of a different generations) that is the subject of this [[Titanomachy]] and even ''contrasted'' with Zoroastrianism-like [[dualism#Moral dualism|dualism]] that sees [[Satan|the enemy]] as the ''equal'' and opposite of [[Yahweh|the (good) God]].
:*Forsyth, in this chapter, follows the motif of an enemy that is a rebel of an overlord. There is an idea of a Satan during the same time frame  (see his chapter 5), but Forsyth points out that they ''later'' became "fused." Forsyth does not developed any union of the two and seems to be indicating that it is ''only later'' that this happens. At the chapter's end Forsyth says "we should not make the mistake of reading into these texts the full cosmology that was to be invented by Christianity, though that was precisly what the church fathers were to do." In fact, this contrast with Christian cosmology is the only mention of Christianity in the whole chapter.
:*Futhermore, any full commentatry (from the last 100 years) on Isaiah or Ezekial will tell you that the passages by Isaiah/Ezekial/whoever-you-think-authored-'em had ''human'' kings (or emperors) in mind for these passages and thus they are about ''human'' rebelliors. (And only later seen as Satan by church fathers. <small>This theology was made even more one or two thousand years later in "Paradise Lost," but not even all Christians holds to Milton's cosmology, much less Judism today.</small>)
:*Forsyth seems to be aware of this but does not make it clear (as it is not really his interest.) But even if ''you'' think this is a chapter by scholar supporting the idea that these passages really are about Satan, it is moot because even by this time all ideas of there being non-Yahweh "god" are dropped. Satan is a just another created being (like human kings.) <sup>[[User talk:Carlaude|{{#if:|<span style="background-color:Carl;color:red;"></span>|<span style="color:red;">Carl</span>}}{{#if:|<span style="background-color:aude:;color:green;"></span>|<span style="color:green;">aude:</span>}}]][[User talk:Carlaude|{{#if:|<span style="background-color:Talk;color:purple;"></span>|<span style="color:purple;">Talk</span>}}]]</sup> 06:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

===More Wetman comments on Carlaude===
:Wikipedia's rather naive article [[War in Heaven]] also takes Carlaude's narrowly Christianist pov, and is not a desirable model of competent discourse, but it does have a brief section that Carlaude will surely want to blank:
::'''Similar motif outside Judeo-Christian faiths'''
::The fall of superhuman beings punished for opposing gods is also found outside of the Abrahamic faiths. [[Homer]]'s [[Iliad]] says [[Hephaestus]] was cast down from the heavenly threshold by [[Zeus]] and landed on the island of [[Lemnos]] nearly dead.<ref>[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133&layout=&loc=1.590 Iliad 1:590-594], [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134&layout=&loc=1.590 translation]</ref> [[Hesiod]] 's [[Theogony]] recounts that the gods, after defeating the [[Titan (mythology)|Titans]], hurled them down to [[Tartarus]] (the [[Titanomachy]]) as far beneath the earth as earth is beneath the sky.<ref>[http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0129 lines 718-726], [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130 translation]</ref>
{{reflist}}
:I don't think we need to put up with bullying over something as familiar as this.[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] ([[User talk:Wetman|talk]]) 18:56, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

::We don't need to blank this. The text is seems fine to me; it is only the footnote that both fails to be found in the cited chapter and is missleading (at best). If you think it has any bearing on your Titanomachy statement, thou, I don't see it. Please be more clear on that, or take this to [[War in Heaven|that page]]. <sup>[[User talk:Carlaude|{{#if:|<span style="background-color:Carl;color:red;"></span>|<span style="color:red;">Carl</span>}}{{#if:|<span style="background-color:aude:;color:green;"></span>|<span style="color:green;">aude:</span>}}]][[User talk:Carlaude|{{#if:|<span style="background-color:Talk;color:purple;"></span>|<span style="color:purple;">Talk</span>}}]]</sup> 06:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not the local amateur theologist you have in mind, but as I've never, ever, ever, EVER heard of a Jewish War in Heaven myth, I think just "Christian" is probably fine. Also, what is "Israely"? Do you mean "Israeli" or is there some term I haven't heard of? [[Special:Contributions/134.173.14.247|134.173.14.247]] ([[User talk:134.173.14.247|talk]]) 19:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)