Editing Eurovision Wiki:Village pump (idea lab) (section)

====Restricting new page creation from existing redirect====
Part of the problem involves TAs turning redirects into full articles. We should be restricting the removal of a redirect tag. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 16:54, 13 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] Certainly. <span style="background-color: black">[[User:CabinetCavers|<span style="color: pink">CabinetCavers--</span>]][[User talk:CabinetCavers|<span style="color: yellow">--DEPOSIT OPINION, [valued customer]</span>]]</span> 17:18, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]], @[[User:CabinetCavers|CabinetCavers]] This is probably  a loophole that wasn't closed at the time of rolling out [[WP:ACPERM]]. It would require code written into MediaWiki that checks autoconfirmed status when converting a page from a redirect to an article. We would need some stats on how often this occurs because it would need WMF buy-in and might not be common enough for the devs to spend time on it. An idea would be to request it at the Wishlist. and see what happens. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 18:53, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:::I think this could be done in [[Special:AbuseFilter]].  That would only require community approval.  We would probably need some stats on not just how often it occurs, but also how often it's problematic to get a consensus for 'disallow' rather than 'warn'. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:24, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
::::The raw number of new editors doing this is pretty easy:  2.5 redirects in the mainspace being un-redirected per day by non-autoconfirmed editors,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?userExpLevel=newcomer&hidebots=1&hidenewpages=1&hidecategorization=1&hideWikibase=1&hidelog=1&hidenewuserlog=1&namespace=0&tagfilter=mw-removed-redirect&limit=1000&days=30&title=Special%3ARecentChanges&urlversion=2] of which 45% have been reverted already, and 10 per day by TAs,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?userExpLevel=unregistered&hidebots=1&hidenewpages=1&hidecategorization=1&hideWikibase=1&hidelog=1&hidenewuserlog=1&namespace=0&tagfilter=mw-removed-redirect&limit=1000&days=30&title=Special%3ARecentChanges&urlversion=2] of which 66% have been reverted already.  (Note that if the redirect status is edit-warred over, then the same article can appear multiple times in this count.) [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 19:31, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::For comparison, about 42% of redirects removed by autoconfirmed but non-extended confirmed editors were also reverted.  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 20:38, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
::::The abuse filter is what we threatened to use for [[WP:ACPERM]] if after our 7 year battle the WMF still steadfastly refused  to entertain it.  @[[User:Binksternet|Binksternet's]] concern is germaine and we should consider looking into it. The fist step however is to know if the occurrence is significant enough to spend time on ''any'' solution. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 19:50, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

:This happens a lot in music topics. Logged-out socks of blocked accounts go to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects]] and ask for new redirects to be made. After the redirects are approved and created, unregistered users arrive to create the page from redirect. Here's a typical sequence from July 2024, with a Texas IP requesting a redirect in July,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/Redirects&diff=next&oldid=1232495448] followed by a different Texas IP creating the page from redirect in August.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=American_Dream_Tour&diff=1240363108&oldid=1232525445] New albums are often followed by requests for redirects for every song on the album, to make it possible for unregistered users to create the song articles.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/Redirects&diff=prev&oldid=1241880789] Independent songs can attract the same attention.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/Redirects&diff=prev&oldid=1278638940] The same sock farm is seen in action at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/64.189.247.245 Texas IP 64.189.247.245] who made many redirect requests for the purpose of sidestepping the requirement that new articles must come only from autoconfirmed users. The frequent edit warring involved in this kind of activity can be seen at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dark_Brotherhood_(song)&action=history the page history of Dark Brotherhood (song)]. Everything I listed in this paragraph comes from ban evasion by [[User:Rishabisajakepauler]].  [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 20:26, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]], I think there is certainly potential for addressing this with an abuse filter.  It figures that it should have been part of [[WP:ACPERM]] but we didn't think of it at the time. Our main objective was to reduce the the permanent backlogs at NPP (The effect of that has now largely been lost over time and NPP is in a crisis).  Perhaps someone with the Abuse Filter Manager right could come up with a proof of concept before the Community's time is wasted on an RfC. So back to @[[User:CabinetCavers|CabinetCavers]] original post: I've been working for a while with the WMF on a possible solution that would reduce the the backlogs at NPP and RfC by nipping the junk and trash from new users in the bud. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 20:47, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Kudpung|Kudpung]] Yay! <span style="background-color: black">[[User:CabinetCavers|<span style="color: pink">CabinetCavers--</span>]][[User talk:CabinetCavers|<span style="color: yellow">--DEPOSIT OPINION, [valued customer]</span>]]</span> 11:52, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

::@[[User:Reconrabbit|Reconrabbit]], this wouldn't prevent TAs from creating drafts, so no baby's will be thrown out with the bathwater. Indeed, it ''will'' stop them making junk articles, but at the same time it will encourage them to produce drafts that with some TLC are likely to be promoted to mainspace rather than consigned to the rubbish bin. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 20:55, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:::If this solution as proposed is techincally possible (remove ability to remove redirects) then I support it. -- [[User:Reconrabbit|<span style="color:#4E8321">Recon</span>]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|<span class="skin-invert" style="color:#073131">rabbit</span>]] 21:01, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:I attest to the fact [[WP:AFC/R]] is abused by LTAs such as [[WP:Sockpuppet investigations/TotalTruthTeller24|TotalTruthTeller24]] among other LTAs, UPE sock farms and  [[WP:GAMING]] in general.  For example [[Draft:Charles Dumont (cyclist)]] was originally a redirect I created via an AFC/R request which the TA immediately turned into an article.  An NPP reviewer moved it draft and is now up for G13 so I got the notice as the creator.  Also because these are created under the reviewer's name, G5 is extremely difficult if later it is discovered the requestor was a [[WP:BMB]] qualifying sock because there is no transparency like with Drafts submitted to AfC.  G5 is declined because sock did not create page. {{pb}}There was a discussion about eliminating both AFC/R and [[WP:AFC/C]] because of the consistent abuse ([[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Archive 60#Eliminating AfC/C and AfC/R]]) but that hobbles AGF requests.  The most recent notification about abuse was a couple months ago  [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Archive 62#Creation of redirects at the behest of sock accounts]].  Pinging {{ping|Ponyo}} because they are familiar.  [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 21:23, 17 March 2026 (UTC)