Editing Talk:Jewish holidays (section)

=={{anchor|Herzl}} Israeli Days of Remembrance and Jabotinsky & Herzl Days ==
After comparing [[Public holidays in Israel]] and [[Jewish holidays]] to the [[Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays]], there are some noted differences. Specifically, "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" and "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", is on [[Public holidays in Israel]], but not on [[Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays]]. Furthermore, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" is not on [[Public holidays in Israel]]. I propose that both the pages [[Public holidays in Israel]] and [[Jewish holidays]] and the template [[Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays]] must be identical for factual consistency. 

So the question becomes, are "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day", "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", and "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" truly Israeli holidays? The Knesset passing a law to note important date or personage happens from time to time, although I do not believe in most of these cases, such days are meant to be national holidays, just "observances".

As well, there are a few Knesset legislated days of remembrance (observances) absent from all, such as [[Herzl Day]] (http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html) and [[Jabotinsky Day]] (http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html)

In conclusion, all of these Israeli "days of remembrance" or "days of observance", I do not believe were created by the Knesset to rise to the level of Israel's actual National Holidays akin to Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaShoah, Yom HaAliyah and Yom Yerushaliym. Thus, although I appreciate their value, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" etc... should not be on the [[Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays]], nor should they be on [[Jewish holidays]] and [[Public holidays in Israel]].

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:::* Solved I believe by adding to the [[Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays]] "Days marked by the Knesset of the State of Israel", and shifting "Mizrahi Expulsion", "Herzl Day" and "Jabotinsky Day" there. :::<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alanadrubin|contribs]]) 15:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)</small>
::::* That's a potential solution. But I've reverted for the time being, pending a further discussion here. [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 16:30, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
:::::* Looking forward to the addition of "Days marked by the Knesset of the State of Israel" to the [[Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays]] [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin|talk]]) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

* You raise an interesting point, [[User:Alanadrubin|Alana]]. When people first added Yom Ha'Aliyah and Mizrahi Expulsion Day to the [[Jewish holidays]] article, I didn't quite like how it worked, and rewrote things a little bit to try to make them fit a little better. 
:Part of this touches on an issue that has been discussed here frequently, and part of it is starting to expand into a little bit of new territory. Let me explain:
:*A point that used to recur here from time to time was whether or not to completely separate "Jewish holidays" from "Israeli holidays", both in the article and in the template. Over time, a consensus evolved, albeit with some participants more enthusiastic than others—that they should stay together. The reasoning, in brief, was this: 
:: (a) The major Jewish holidays are also Israeli public holidays, and 
:: (b) large parts of the Jewish world consider the earlier holidays established by Israel—''i.e.,'' Yom Ha'Atzma'ut and its associated Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaShoah and Yom Yerushalayim—to have accreted a greater or lesser religious component to them, including to Jews outside the State of Israel. Accordingly, they have become, to some extent, "Jewish holidays" alongside the others. To the extent that we limit the discussion to those four days, I don't think that consensus has changed much.
:*Yom HaAliyah and Mizrahi Expulsion Day become more problematic, from the point of view of the article [[Jewish holidays]]:
::*The ''dates'' of Yom HaAliyah were selected with definite religious forethought—10 Nisan, the day of Joshua's aliyah, and 7 Heshvan, during the week of Parashat Lekh Lekha. And Aliyah is certainly a core Jewish religious value, at least traditionally. <small>(I state it that way to avoid an involved discussion of that here, which would not be appropriate.)</small> Yet there is no evidence so far that the day itself has taken on any religious significance whatsoever. (If someone has such evidence, that could change my opinion on this one.
:::* Yom HaAliyah is an actual Israeli National Holiday on the level of Yom Yerushalayim and Yom HaAtzmaut etc... As for the religiosity of Yom HaAliyah, it's context is fully based in the Torah/Tanach/Bible, and on God's commandments to both Abraham and Joshua, as well as God's prophetic blessing in the Torah to return the Jews to the Land of Israel from the "four corners of the world", also known as the [[Gathering of Israel]] or "in-gathering of the exiles". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alanadrubin|contribs]]) 15:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)</small>
::::* I accept that up to a point. And you really don't have to sell the religious underpinnings of the day to me, Alana. (Look at my [[User:StevenJ81|user page]].) Still, there are a couple of differences here. First, while the concept of Aliyah has religious underpinnings, I've seen no evidence of any special religious observance on Yom Ha'Aliyah (yet), such as one sees for the first four days. Second, I've seen no evidence that there is any interest in it—especially religious interest—outside of Israel. So it's a still very much a borderline case. Look, it's a pretty new day, and may evolve to that point; we'll see. At this point, there would have to be consensus to remove it, so let's see if that happens. (I'm on the fence.) I'll add: I removed the other Knesset days here because we began the discussion before those were added, and that makes the ''status quo ante'' to leave them out for now. If consensus evolves to add them then we will do that. (I don't favor that; see the rest of my reasoning elsewhere.) [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 16:42, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
:::::* My opinion is that as long as Yom HaShoah, Yom Yerushalyim, Yom HaAliyah, and Yom HaZikaron have no liturgical aspects to them during a Synagogue service, beyond possibly being references in a rabbi's sermon, and they do not have any observances that involve actual halachic aspects, they do not rise to the level of a Jewish holiday, beyond being Israeli National Holidays. I personally am happy to consider all five Israeli National Holidays created by the Knesset beyond the traditional Jewish holidays, as "Jewish holidays" as well for the purpose of [[Jewish holidays]] if they are explained as Israeli national modern inventions. Unlike those four, I think many religious Jews would agree that since there is a vibrant good faith debate on whether to say the Hallel prayer, and shave, on Yom HaAtzmaut, it may be worthy of transcending Yom HaShoah, Yom Yerushalyim, Yom HaAliyah, and Yom HaZikaron to become an actual holiday within Judaism. [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin|talk]]) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::* For the record, in some circles it's actually less controversial to say Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim than on Yom Ha'Atzma'ut. In the appropriate circles in both Israel and the Diaspora substantial changes are made to the liturgy on Yom Yerushalayim, too. Yom HaZikaron and Yom HaShoah have small liturgical references (memorial prayers, mostly), but are also widely observed outside of Israel in some way or another. So I don't even have an issue with those three.  I'm still struggling with Yom HaAliyah. But, as you say, if it's a holiday, while the others aren't, I could probably be convinced.  Let's give this a few more days; there are a couple of other people out there who may weigh in. [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 21:47, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
::*Mizrahi Expulsion Day is also pretty much secular so far, as far as I can tell. It has the potential to become (to some extent) a Mizrahi counterpart to Yom HaShoah, and could become more of a religious observance. But it's new, and it hasn't, yet.
:::*Mizrahi Expulsion Day is on the level of Jabotinsky Day and Herzl Day. They are all merely days of note marked by the Knesset. Thus should not be included in any listing of [[Jewish holidays]], but should remain on [[Public holidays in Israel]] if referenced properly. [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin|talk]]) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
:*And then there are the individual remembrance days, for Rabin, Herzl, Jabotinsky, and so forth. I personally see those as no more than ''yahrzeits'' of a more-public-than-usual character, but there is plenty of history to suggest that religiously, ''yahrzeits'' are something different from holidays. (Hassidim may not entirely agree with that, and the ''yahrzeit'' of Moses may be a slight exception to that rule.) If so, from a religious perspective, they probably don't belong here. Yet, from the point of view of Israel as a nation, I'm not sure they would be any less appropriate than, say, [[Washington's Birthday]] or [[Lincoln's Birthday]] in the US. 
::* The US Congress has had many votes creating days marked as noteworthy, but they are not considered US National Holidays. Beyond the traditional religious Jewish holidays, Israel's Knesset has only created five to date, Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom Yerushalayim, Yom HaShoah, and most recently, Yom HaAliyah. [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin|talk]]) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
:So the new ground that we are starting to cover is this: To what extent do days with arguable or no unusual religious significance belong in this article. And if they don't, can the template, or [[Public holidays in Israel]], be different? Or do the three need to be the same?
:*I would argue that they can and should be different. Whether I would prefer this to be true or not, there are aspects to the State of Israel that are secular. It seems to me that some of these days are really secular, and don't really belong in this article—yet probably do belong in the article about public holidays in Israel. Similarly, there probably needs to be a second navigation template covering Israeli holidays. But differently from the way a second template was proposed in the past, I will suggest an approach in which the two templates, and to some extent the two articles, overlap to a notable extent. Here's my proposal:
:#As things stand now, the only days "created" by the State of Israel that belong in this article are Yom Ha'Atzma'ut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom Yerushalayim, and Yom HaShoah. Others, at present, should only be included in the article [[Public holidays in Israel]]. ''If evidence starts to appear that other days are starting to take on a notable religious component, we can revisit that on an item-by-basis.''
:#*As noted above, Yom HaAliyah is the fifth holiday created by the State of Israel, and thus wherever Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom Yerushalayim, and Yom HaShoah appear, Yom HaAliyah should as well. All other "days" created by the Knesset are merely days marked as noteworthy. [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin|talk]]) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
:#The template "Jewish and Israeli holidays" similarly includes only those four. But there is a link to a navigation template for Israeli holidays as well.
:#The article on public holidays in Israel properly includes any day widely observed in Israel, at least consistent with the practice of other "Public holidays in ..." pages.
:#The new template "Israeli public holidays" would include any Israeli public day listed on that page, which includes many, but not all of the days mentioned here. It would be linked to the original navigation template, too.
:#* I very much like the idea of a new template called "Israeli public holidays", but would still like to see Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaAliyah, Yom Yerushalayim, and Yom HaShoah appear on the [[Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays]] under the proper heading. [[User:Alanadrubin|Alanadrubin]] ([[User talk:Alanadrubin|talk]]) 18:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
:Those are my thoughts. Others' are welcome. [[User:StevenJ81|StevenJ81]] ([[User talk:StevenJ81|talk]]) 14:37, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
{{cot|Specific details about Herzl Day and Jabotinsky Day from Knesset legislation}}
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=== Herzl Day ===
http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html
	Herzl Day shall be held once a year, on Iyar 10, the birthday of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. On this day -
	(1)
	A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem;
	(2)
	In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl;
	(3)
	A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl shall be discussed.
	(b)
	The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Herzl Day on its exact date, or a date close to it.
	(c)
	Should Iyar 10 fall on a Sabbath, Herzl Day shall be held on the following Sunday.

=== Jabotinsky Day ===
http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html
Jabotinsky Day shall be held once a year, on Tammuz 29, the day of Ze'ev Jabotinsky's death. On this day -
	(1)
	A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem;
	(2)
	In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky;
	(3)
	A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium, issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky shall be discussed.
	(b)
	The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Jabotinsky Day on its exact date, or a date close to it.
	(c)
	Should Tammuz 29 fall on a Sabbath, Jabotinsky Day shall be held on the following Sunday.
	11.
	Once per year, on the day of Tevet 12, school programs will be dedicated to Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s achievements and Zionist vision.
{{cob}}