Editing Talk:Bar and bat mitzvah

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{{old move|date=17 January 2026|destination=bene mitzvah|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1334080601#Requested move 17 January 2026}}

== Scheduling of bar mitzvah ==

A couple of Judaism 101 questions:
<br>
In the film ''[[Sixty Six (film)|Sixty Six]]'' "based on the true life bar mitzvah of director Paul Weiland", the plot hinges on the fact that the protagonist's Bar Mitzvah is scheduled for the same day as the 1966 [[World Cup]], and the resulting conflict in priorities evidenced by his relatives and friends. 
<br>
AFAIK (and I don't) it's not necessary that a Bar Mitzvah be scheduled on any specific day. Yes? No?
<br>
On the other hand, I assume that a Bar Mitvah must be scheduled so as to avoid conflicts with various [[Jewish holiday|holidays]].(?) -- [[Special:Contributions/201.37.230.43|201.37.230.43]] ([[User talk:201.37.230.43|talk]]) 22:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
: There is a difference between a Bar Mitzvah (on the 13th birthday) and the Bar Mitzvah party. Most prefer to have it on the exact day and on the shabbat following it. [[User:Happy138|Happy138]] ([[User talk:Happy138|talk]]) 07:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
::A child becomes bar/bat mitzvah at the set age-- the ritual and/or party is just to recognize the milestone (like how one ages another year regardless of whether one has a birthday party).  Also, I was born in January, but because my parents were afraid of a possible snowstorm ruining the day, we set the service and reception for April (and sure enough, it snowed the weekend of my birthday). [[User:NewkirkPlaza|NewkirkPlaza]] ([[User talk:NewkirkPlaza|talk]]) 21:40, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
<br> A lot of communities don't strictly do the birthday thing either. Many places don't do them during the summer months, have policies as to whether multiple unrelated kids can have theirs on the same day, and so forth, so a lot of them end up being just at some point during the school year that the teen turns 13. Some places let b'mitzvah students choose the date based on the parsha they resonate with. Someone can probably pull up synagogue websites or blog posts to find citations if we want this added. [[User:Triangular|Triangular]] ([[User talk:Triangular|talk]]) 19:59, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

== Capitalization? ==

Is there any reason why "Bar Mitzvah" and "Bas Mitzvah" are capitalized in the article? [[User:Robert K S|Robert&nbsp;K&nbsp;S]] ([[User talk:Robert K S|talk]]) 01:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

:Moreover, is there any reason why every permutation of capitalization of the first and second word seem to be employed in the article?  Which is correct?&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Hydrargyrum|Quicksilver]]<sup>[[User_talk:Hydrargyrum|T]] [[Special:Emailuser/Hydrargyrum|@]]</sup> 05:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

== Split proposal ==

I suggest that this article be split into two, or at least have seperate articles on the Bar and Bat mitzvahs ''as well'' as this overview article, because although they share part of their name, and nowadays are seen as different-gender versions of the same thing, they are actually two completely different things, with two very different histories.Althoughh Bar Mitzvahs have been around since ancient times, Bat Mitzvahs were only invented in the last 100 years or so for gender equality. 

{{quotation|"In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, many Jewish communities began marking when a girl became a Bat Mitzvah with a special ceremony. This was a break from traditional Jewish custom, which prohibited women from participating directly in religious services.

Using the Bar Mitzvah ceremony as a model, Jewish communities began to experiment with developing a similar ceremony for girls. In 1922, Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan performed the first proto-bat mitzvah ceremony in America for his daughter Judith, when she was allowed to read from the Torah when she became a Bat Mitzvah. Although this new found privilege did not match the Bar Mitzvah ceremony in complexity, the event nevertheless marked what is widely considered to be the first modern bat mitzvah in the United States. It triggered the development and evolution of the modern Bat Mitzvah ceremony."|<ref>http://judaism.about.com/od/lifeevents/a/What-Is-A-Bat-Mitzvah.htm</ref>}}
--[[User:Coin945|Coin945]] ([[User talk:Coin945|talk]]) 03:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

:This article just crossed my way and I saw this split proposal. I highly support doing this as the user above suggested. The two articles, Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah, should be separated - exactly like they are in nearly all other Wikipedias. Any comments/opinions? If no resistance is met, I'll do it myself some time this week. -[[User:Shalom11111|Shalom11111]] ([[User talk:Shalom11111|talk]]) 14:50, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
::I don't see the need or desirability for this. This article is not large, and the two articles would be largely overlapping, so best keep them together. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:34, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
:::I kind of changed my mind immediately after writing that sentence.. Looking at the article and considering what you said, I agree. Leave as is. [[User:Shalom11111|Shalom11111]] ([[User talk:Shalom11111|talk]]) 20:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
:Been a year, no consensus, so I removed the tag. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|::==( o )]]</small></sup> 17:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

{{Reflist-talk}}

I would suggest strongly that this NOT be split, as reform/recon/cons communities also include and celebrate trans, gender-fluid, nonbinary, etc. teens, and this would just further marginalize and other these teens. You're completely correct of course that the history differs, but the history of a LOT of things was that first only men did it, then women, and more recently we specifically included and affirmed queer/nonbinary folks (with the understanding that before the 1400s-1600s and rampant colonization and Christian missionizing, most of the world was actually much more open with regards to gender expression outside of the binary). [[User:Triangular|Triangular]] ([[User talk:Triangular|talk]]) 20:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

== Capitalization ==
Should Bar, Bat, and Mitzvah be capped? There are examples of both in the article. Also, on [[Andrew Breitbart]], same issue which brought me here, so I'm still confused. Would someone please fix? Thanks [[User:Jim1138|Jim1138]] ([[User talk:Jim1138|talk]]) 18:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

== Opening sentence ==

<BLOCKQUOTE>Bar Mitzvah (Hebrew: בַּר מִצְוָה‬) and Bat Mitzvah (Hebrew: בַּת מִצְוָה‬) (Ashkenazi pronunciation: "Bas Mitzvah") (plural: B'nai Mitzvah for boys, and B'not Mitzvah – Ashkenazi pronunciation: "B'nos Mitzvah" – for girls) are Jewish coming of age rituals.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Can we do something about this sentence? It hurts my brain to see three separate parenthesized sections in a row, not to mention having them encompass 80% of the sentence. [[User:Prinsgezinde|Prinsgezinde]] ([[User talk:Prinsgezinde|talk]]) 01:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

== Capitals and italic ==

In this article we find bar mitzvah, bar Mitzvah, and Bar Mitzvah. They should be the same. Which is preferred?

Also bar mitzvah is sometimes in italic, and other times not. [[User:Deisenbe|deisenbe]] ([[User talk:Deisenbe|talk]]) 11:38, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

: According to the [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting#Foreign_terms|rules]], it should be written without capitals or italics. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 16:54, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

::This has been raised on numerous occasions, all the way back to 2006 (see above and [[Talk:Bar and bat mitzvah/Archive 1#Capitalization|here]]); and no-one has ever stepped in to defend either capitals or italics. I'm going to standardize it throughout. If anyone disagrees, please explain your reasoning here. [[User:Eric Pode lives|Eric Pode lives]] ([[User talk:Eric Pode lives|talk]]) 19:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

== Is a synagogue ceremony essential? ==

Does a Jewish boy automatically become bar mitzvah when he turns 13, regardless of what he knows or what ceremony or aliyah in the synagogue has or has not taken place? Is he counted in a minyan without any bar mitzvah ceremony? [[User:Deisenbe|deisenbe]] ([[User talk:Deisenbe|talk]]) 11:44, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
: Yes, and yes. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 16:55, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

== Age of Bat Mitzvah in Conservative Judaism? ==

According to a December 2021 revision, still present as of this time, Conservative Judaism, like Reform Judaism, holds B'not Mitzvah at 13, just like boys.  That was certainly not true when I was growing up, but there is a distressing lack of any concrete information I can find about this on the official USCJ/RCA organizational websites.  Was there a shift? Is it on a synagogue-by-synagogue basis?  Or was the edit just mistaken?
[[User:Gejyspa|--gejyspa]] ([[User talk:Gejyspa|talk]]) 15:01, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
:I'm not sure of the detail of when the 12-13 change happened, but from [https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/bat-mitzvah-american-jewish-women this], it would appear to have a gradual move toward equality on all fronts. [[User:Jpgordon|--jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107;]]</small></sup> 15:33, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
::Yes, I had read that article when researching the question. But ''nowhere'' in that article does it state Conservatives in specific have ever held it (or hold it) at 13. 01:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC) [[User:Gejyspa|--gejyspa]] ([[User talk:Gejyspa|talk]]) 01:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

== Requested move 17 January 2026 ==

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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] {{strong|after}} discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> Thanks, [[User:1isall|<span style="color:cyan; background-color:navy;">1isall</span>]] ([[User talk:1isall|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/1isall|contribs]]) . . (he/him) 02:51, 24 January 2026 (UTC)
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[[:Bar and bat mitzvah]] → {{no redirect|bene mitzvah}} – These days, the form "bene mitzvah", often abbreviated in speech to "b mitzvah", is used. I recommend we move the page as this is a neutral form (and also shorter). [[User Talk:Ogress|Ogress]] 03:07, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': The article does not even mention the proposed title as an alternative name for the subject. If it is "often" used, please provide some evidence of the relative frequency of that. [[Google Ngram Viewer]] does not find it at all. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 20:07, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. This has nothing to do with neutrality. The current title is the obvious [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. [[User:Longhornsg|Longhornsg]] ([[User talk:Longhornsg|talk]]) 01:22, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 12:04, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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== Merge proposal ==

Merge [[Adult bar and bat mitzvah]] into [[Bar and bat mitzvah]]. Unnecessary [[WP:SPINOFF]]. The former is just the latter, after the age of 12-13. The ritual is the same and should be covered on the same page. [[User:Longhornsg|Longhornsg]] ([[User talk:Longhornsg|talk]]) 01:23, 18 January 2026 (UTC)

:'''Support''' sounds reasonable [[User:FortunateSons|FortunateSons]] ([[User talk:FortunateSons|talk]]) 10:40, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

:'''Oppose for now''': I'll support this later, but the contents in both pages are just fine as is, especially for the average reader/viewer who may be confused as to which is which. Also, if you want just a content merge per your rationale, simply copy the portions of what is different there over here and explain why in the edit summary rather than this merge proposal. [[User:Intrisit|Intrisit]] ([[User talk:Intrisit|talk]]) 08:53, 18 February 2026 (UTC)
::What kind of merger would be applicable here if not a content merge? '''[[User:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:#0c4709">Thebiguglyalien</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:#472c09">talk</span>]]) 19:29, 1 March 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support''' merge to reduce the duplication; there is already a section ready, for anything that is adult-specific, at [[Bar and bat mitzvah#In adults]]. [[User:Klbrain|Klbrain]] ([[User talk:Klbrain|talk]]) 23:22, 2 March 2026 (UTC)
*'''oppose'''. Little overlap, Wikipedia not paper. Handle per [[WP:Summary style]] guideline: have a summary section in [[Bar and bat mitzvah]]. --[[user:Altenmann|Altenmann]] [[user talk:Altenmann|>talk]] 00:47, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' the sub-topic is notable and independent. '''[[User:AndreJustAndre|Andre]]'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">[[User_talk:AndreJustAndre|🚐]]</span> 03:06, 8 March 2026 (UTC)