Editing Talk:Captain (armed forces)

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== A land Captain on a naval ship ==

I've read in a Heinlin book that when a land Captain boards a naval ship, then the sailors refer to him as Major (a rank higher than Captain), because there can be only one Captain in a ship, and that's the naval Captain.[[User:Sandman2007|Sandman2007]] ([[User talk:Sandman2007|talk]]) 09:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

:Interesting. Which book? [[User:Pdfpdf|Pdfpdf]] ([[User talk:Pdfpdf|talk]]) 11:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
:: I think it was Space Troopers. 
:: "As a matter of etiquette in the U.S. Navy there is only one captain aboard a vessel. If a Marine Corps captain is at the officer's mess, he or she is given the courtesy title of major to be differentiated from the head of the ship." From: [[Captain (naval)]].     [[User:Sandman2007|Sandman2007]] ([[User talk:Sandman2007|talk]]) 18:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

::: It was ''Starship Troopers'', yes, and it seems to be fairly close to universal in fiction and science fiction, but I'm playing pluperfect hell trying to source it in real life.  --[[User:Baylink|Baylink]] ([[User talk:Baylink|talk]]) 03:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Found two US Navy references that say that captains should be addressed as captains. See references in [[Captain (naval)]]. [[User:Sandman2007|Sandman2007]] ([[User talk:Sandman2007|talk]]) 15:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

==UK Centric==
This article may be too specific for what it is and definitely includes too many UK specific details. And do all the commonwealth countries really follow the same ranking structure?--[[Special:Contributions/99.206.35.139|99.206.35.139]] ([[User talk:99.206.35.139|talk]]) 00:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

:I concur.  As a minimum, I think that the "common military ranks" info boxes ought to be removed.  I haven't yet done that, per the "be bold" maxim in WP, just because of time.  [[User:Pdfpdf]] removed the UK and US rank lists for much the same reason.  
:[[User:Don&#39;tKnowItAtAll|Don&#39;tKnowItAtAll]] ([[User talk:Don&#39;tKnowItAtAll|talk]]) 12:50, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

::Hmmm. I'm afraid I have different opinions.
::* I don't see any more UK specific details than U.S. specific: UK 4, US 4, France 1, Canada 1, Commonwealth 3
::* ''And do all the commonwealth countries really follow the same ranking structure?'' - No. And the article doesn't say they do. It says: ''"the air forces of '''many''' Commonwealth countries"''. And in the next sentence: ''"In the unified system of the Canadian Forces, however, the air force rank titles are identical to that of the Army"''.
::* ''"[[User:Pdfpdf]] removed the UK and US rank lists for much the same reason."'' - Not really; I removed the templates because they are about UK ranks and US ranks, whereas this article is about the one rank of Captain, not about ranks in general, nor specifically about UK or US.
::* Regarding ''"I think that the "common military ranks" info boxes ought to be removed."'' - I'm not convinced one way or the other. I think it's appropriate to start a discussion, and will do so.
::Cheers, [[User:Pdfpdf|Pdfpdf]] ([[User talk:Pdfpdf|talk]]) 14:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

== Removal of "Common military ranks" box ==

[[User:Don'tKnowItAtAll]] has canvased the idea of the removal of this box<br>The following is derived from [[User talk:Pdfpdf#Captain (land and air)]]:
*'''Remove''' - I think that the "Common military ranks" info boxes ought to be deleted because they are not necessarily common to all nations, they have a footnote about the UK, etc.  Therefore, I think that the info box ought to be deleted.  This was also a concern of an anonymous user back in Sept see [[Talk:Captain (land and air)#UK Centric]] above.  Thoughts? [[User:Don&#39;tKnowItAtAll|Don&#39;tKnowItAtAll]] ([[User talk:Don&#39;tKnowItAtAll|talk]]) 12:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
*'''Retain until we can find a better way to provide the functionality.''' - Although I don't particularly like that box, it's a reasonably concise summary of the ranks, and shows where a rank fits into "the grand scheme", so it does serve a useful purpose. That raises some questions: 1) How well does it serve that purpose?  2) If you removed it, would you be able to replace it with something that better serves that purpose? Although I can't find anything to disagree with in what you say, it would seem that I think the box serves a useful purpose, and I can't think of a better way to serve that purpose. Therefore, I don't think removing the box is the best way forward, unless we can find something better to replace it with. [[User:Pdfpdf|Pdfpdf]] ([[User talk:Pdfpdf|talk]]) 14:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
*'''Retain'''.  If there is a problem with the Common military ranks then it should be improved.  Personally, I think the box is pretty good as it is, although as with most things it might stand some improvement.  While it does not include every single rank in every single language (that would be a vast amount of information), it does include the generic name of almost all ranks in all English-speaking countries. [[User:Greenshed|Greenshed]] ([[User talk:Greenshed|talk]]) 19:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

== Name change ==

''Captain (land)'' doesn't make a lot of sense to me: most sports team captains, tower captains, &c, operate on land.  To distinguish OR-2 army captains from their OR-5 naval namesakes I believe '''Captain (military)''' would make more sense: this would apply to army and marine captains, captains in paramilitary forces and certain police forces, without implying football captains, Salvation Army captains, &c.  [[Special:Contributions/78.145.235.241|78.145.235.241]] ([[User talk:78.145.235.241|talk]]) 20:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. At the moment, [[Captain (military)]] redirects to this article, and [[Captain (military rank)]] redirects to [[Captain]]. Seems like there's some reorganizing to do. [[User:Eric|Eric]] [[User talk:Eric|<sup>talk</sup>]] 17:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

::Not being funny, but wouldn't this article be better titled "Captain (Army)"? The disambiguation "land" seems odd and implies "terrain". Captain (military) is still too wide as it would imply air force captains and naval captains as well. Naval captains are are equivalent to colonels, so that would be wildly wrong! --[[User:Bermicourt|Bermicourt]] ([[User talk:Bermicourt|talk]]) 18:25, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

:::'''Comments''': 
:::a) There are OF-2 Captains that aren't "army" (or "land"). 
:::b) I'm not sure what "[[Captain (military)]]" means. Nor am I sure what it "should" mean. 
:::c) I would have thought that <u>all</u> of Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Captains were <u>both</u> "[[Captain (military)]]" and "[[Captain (military rank)]]". 
:::d) I'm not sure what "[[Captain (rank)]]" means, or "should" mean. The current situation of it redirecting to a dab page ([[Captain]]) seems sensible. 
:::e) Similarly, I am quite comfortable that "[[Captain]]" is a dab page. 
:::f) Where they exist, Commonwealth Marine captains are, in general, OF-2. 
:::g) US Army, Marine and Air Force captains are [[Captain (OF-2)]] (i.e. [[Captain (O-3)]] 
:::h) [[Captain (non-naval)]] seems rather silly to me ... (I wouldn't support it.) 
:::i) There is a "[[Captain (land and air)]]" (that currently redirects to "[[Captain (land)]]"). That does 2/3 of the job, but doesn't cover "marines". 
:::j) [[Captain (OF-2)]] is unambiguous and concise. As are [[Captain (OF-5)]] and [[Captain (naval)]]. 
:::[[User:Pdfpdf|Pdfpdf]] ([[User talk:Pdfpdf|talk]]) 16:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

:::'''My Opinions''': 
:::a) I think the there should be eight pages: [[Captain]] (a dab page); [[Captain (OF-2)]] (a page); [[Captain (OF-5)]] (a dab page); [[Captain (naval)]] (a page); [[Group Captain]] (a page); [[Captain (United States)]] (a page); [[Captain (British Army and Royal Marines)]] (a page); [[Captain (Royal Navy)]] (a page)
:::b) I don't think either "[[Captain (military)]]" or "[[Captain (military rank)]]" are at all useful disambiguators. 
:::c) I don't think there is much, if any, difference between [[Captain (land)]] and [[Captain (army)]], and neither are particularly useful disambiguators. 
:::d) I much prefer [[Captain (naval)]] to [[Captain (OF-5)]], but it doesn't cover [[Group Captain]], so I guess we need all three.
:::e) I don't particularly like [[Captain (OF-2)]], but it caters for [[Captain (marines)]], whereas [[Captain (land and air)]] doesn't.
:::[[User:Pdfpdf|Pdfpdf]] ([[User talk:Pdfpdf|talk]]) 16:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

;Pdfpdf's preferences expanded/clarified (I hope)
{|class=wikitable
! Page name                     || Redirects
|-
| [[Captain]] - dab             || [[Captain (rank)]]; [[Captain (military)]]; [[Captain (military rank)]]; [[Captain (non-naval)]] 
|-
| [[Captain (OF-2)]] - article|| [[Captain (land)]]; [[Captain (army)]]; [[Captain (land and air)]]; [[Captain (marines)]]
|-
| [[Captain (OF-5)]] - dab      ||
|-
| [[Captain (naval)]] - article ||
|-
| [[Group Captain]] - article   ||
|-
| [[Captain (United States)]] - article || [[Captain (O-3)]]
|-
| [[Captain (British Army and Royal Marines)]] - article ||
|-
| [[Captain (Royal Navy)]] - article ||
|-
|
*etc. (See [[Captain]])
|
|}

Thanks Pdfpdf - an outstanding proposal to bring clarity out of confusion! I would support all of the above with just 2 minor caveats: first, a question mark about why [[Captain (naval)]] shouldn't be the main article and [[Captain (OF-5)]] the redirect as at present. AFAIK the only OF-5 captains are naval and its the clearer title of the two. Second, it should be Group Captain as at present, not Group captain, which is a combination that is never used in my experience. --[[User:Bermicourt|Bermicourt]] ([[User talk:Bermicourt|talk]]) 19:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

:Dear Bermicourt, I agree with you - that is indeed what I had originally intended! Thanks. Have I now succeeded in making it clearer? Cheers, [[User:Pdfpdf|Pdfpdf]] ([[User talk:Pdfpdf|talk]]) 16:00, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

==Image copyright problem with File:Captain Pak Army.jpg==
The image [[:File:Captain Pak Army.jpg]] is used in this article under a claim of [[WP:NFC|fair use]], but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the [[WP:NFCC|requirements for such images]] when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|explanation]] linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check

:* That there is a [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|non-free use rationale]] on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
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This is an automated notice by [[User:FairuseBot|FairuseBot]]. For assistance on the image use policy, see [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions]]. --03:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

== obtaining the rank of captain  ==

i removed a section detailing how one may obtain the rank of captain because i belived the information to be false and lacking proper accuracy. previously it was stated that in the british and american armed forces, one may aquire the rank of captain upon graduating the officer training course of those countries; this is false, in reality, graduation of the officer training course would leave the individual holding the initial rank of second lieutenant. at the time of writing this, information detailing how one may obtain the rank is missing.[[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C7:9D05:7A01:5501:F6B1:6A69:F5A9|2A00:23C7:9D05:7A01:5501:F6B1:6A69:F5A9]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C7:9D05:7A01:5501:F6B1:6A69:F5A9|talk]]) 22:52, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

== Unnecessary addition of a Waffen-SS photo ==

Not sure why [[User:Ruurikki|Ruurikki]] felt it was necessary back in 2023 to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Captain_(armed_forces)&diff=prev&oldid=1183877612 add a photograph] of Finnish ''Waffen-SS'' captain [[Lauri Törni]] to the article as a replacement for an equally unnecessary photo of Finnish captain [[Aarne Juutilainen]]. Regardless, a photo of a specific captain is unnecessary for an article about a topic generally and in a worldwide perspective. <big>[[User:Yue|<span style="color:#757575; font-family:Consolas, monospace">''Yue''</span>]][[User talk:Yue|🌙]]</big> 21:04, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
:I reverted that removal -- it's relevant as he is one of the extremely few (possibly the only) people in history to have held the rank of Captain in three separate armed forces.  The caption didn't note this (though it would have been easily discoverable by clicking through to Torni's article anyway) so I've updated it to include that. Regardless, it's encyclopedic, relevant to the topic, and represents a worldwide perspective; we don't censor content just because it happens to feature someone who fought for a side we don't like. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 22:58, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
:I recommend you educate yourself on the topic before jumping to conclusions, not only because of what Swatjester said but the man is quite interesting regardless. [[User:Jesuliz|Jesuliz]] ([[User talk:Jesuliz|talk]]) 17:12, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

== Merge proposal Kapitan ==

I propose merging [[Kapitan (rank)]] into [[Captain (armed forces)]]. I believe Kapitan is just [[WP:DUPLICATE|duplicate]] of the Captain army rank.

While there is some overlap, the ''Kapitan'' article mainly focuses on the usage of the rank in the armed forces of former [[Warsaw Pact]] countries. This content could be easily incorporated into the destination article.

[[User:PanZWarzywniaka|PanZWarzywniaka]] ([[User talk:PanZWarzywniaka|talk]]) 11:59, 30 January 2026 (UTC)