Editing Talk:NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament

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== Erroneous Origin of Term "March Madness" ==

This article's information about the origin of the term "March madness" is erroneous. It was originally used beginning in 1931, in reference to Indiana high school basketball. This was discovered by the distinguished etymologist Barry Popik and [https://barrypopik.com/blog/march_madness is detailed at his barrypopik.com website.]  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.36.7.85|128.36.7.85]] ([[User talk:128.36.7.85#top|talk]]) 23:05, 5 February 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:[[User:128.36.7.85|@128.36.7.85]] At best that would be only a minor modification to the history of the term. Whatever use was made of "March Madness" in Indiana in the early 1930's obviously wasn't enough to prevent its use in Illinois starting in the late 1930's; my guess was it had faded away in Indiana before 1939. OTOH, Illinois' prior use of "March Madness" is acknowledged in the numerous court cases involving conflicting uses of the term; even though IHSA gave its share of the trademark registration to the NCAA years ago, it still controls the right to use "March Madness" for high school basketball tournaments apparently under license from the NCAA. [[User:RBBrittain|RBBrittain]] ([[User talk:RBBrittain|talk]]) 02:27, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

== Does SoFi Stadium qualify? ==

The article as presently written claims SoFi Stadium is one of the 11 stadiums that would qualify to host the Final Four under the previous criteria (no longer strictly followed but still apparently the basic rule). There is one problem with that, however: While SoFi does have a roof over the field, the sides of the stadium are open to the elements; thus it is NOT an indoor domed or retractable roof stadium like the others on this list. Wouldn't that disqualify SoFi from hosting the Final Four, or any NCAA tournament game for that matter? [[User:RBBrittain|RBBrittain]] ([[User talk:RBBrittain|talk]]) 02:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

== Defunct Mid-Major Conferences and the Metro, Great Midwest, and Southwest Conference ==

I'd like to ask why the Metro is not listed among the defunct mid-major conferences if the Southwest and Great Midwest are? All were considered major conferences at the time, but seeing as the Metro the other two are listed, the Metro should be, or the other two should be de-listed. Simply for the sake of consistency and keeping things simple and so as not to have to explain why the Southwest and Great Midwest are listed and the Metro is not.


Separately, if the Southwest is left in, SMU for example made a bunch of Sweet 16 appearances in the 50s and 60s, and even an Elite 8 in 1967 and a Final 4 in 1956, and I'm sure there are more examples like this in defunct conferences that no one except a total nerd and perfectionist like me would care about.


-Alex

[[User:Alexseidner0831|Alexseidner0831]] ([[User talk:Alexseidner0831|talk]]) 00:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

== Getting Article to GA Status ==

This article has long been overloaded with unnecessary things. As the main article about one of the most popular sporting events in the US, this really should be of higher quality. I did some editing of the technical description of the tournament and seed list several months ago, and now am wanting to start the discussion on broader changes that are needed. I'm a relatively new editor, so not sure exactly where to start but feel like the lead could be a good place to focus on to help determine what the rest of the article looks like.

===Lead Improvements===

Right now, it is a mess. Per [[MOS:INTRO]] the lead should summarize the event, which it does not do. The technical description of the tournament and seeding is too detailed and possibly even confusing to readers unfamiliar with the subject; this should be brief as there is a much more detailed description that is easier to understand in its own section. Several things are given undue weight ([[MOS:LEADREL]]), including putting the discussion of the wider cultural relevance in the second paragraph--and then the cultural relevance is mentioned again in the fourth paragraph with the TV broadcast. The COVID tournament get's its own paragraph at the bottom of the lead, which is definitely not relevant enough for a full paragraph anymore (and maybe not relevant for lead mention at all).

It would also be good to limit the listing of previous champions. While there are relatively few teams that have won two or more, the paragraph is too verbose listing them all. UCLA should obviously remain, but after that I'm not sure what route to go. I could see limiting it to the top five champions, limiting it to those with three or more titles, or listing the teams with the most championships, most final four appearances, most wins as a way to emphasize different ways to measure postseason success.

The tournament was created in [[1939 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament|1939]] by the [[National Association of Basketball Coaches]], and was the idea of [[Ohio State Buckeyes men's basketball|Ohio State]] coach [[Harold Olsen]]

'''Here is my proposed draft of a new lead:'''

The '''NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament''', also known as '''''NCAA March Madness''''' is a [[single-elimination tournament]] played in the United States to determine the men's [[college basketball]] national champion of the [[NCAA Division I|Division I]] level in the [[National Collegiate Athletic Association]]. The tournament currently consists of 68 teams and was first conducted in [[1939 NCAA basketball tournament|1939]]. Known for its upsets of favored teams, it has become one of the biggest annual sporting events in the US.

The tournament teams include champions from 32 Division I conferences and 36 teams which are awarded [[At-large bid|at-large berths]]. These "at-large" teams are chosen by an [[NCAA basketball tournament selection process|NCAA selection committee]], then announced in a nationally televised event dubbed ''[[NCAA basketball tournament selection process#Selection%20Sunday|Selection Sunday]]''. Teams are placed in four regions and given a seed between 1 and 16 within the region. The tournament consists of seven rounds and is conducted over three successive weeks. The first week narrows the field down to 16 teams, starting with eight teams competing in the [[First Four]] to advance to the main bracket. The second week consists of the Regional Semifinals & Finals, narrowing the field down to four teams. The final week is played at one site and known as the [[Final Four (college basketball)|Final Four]] and a National Champion is crowned.

The current 68-team format was adopted in [[2011 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament|2011]], and has remained largely unchanged since [[1985 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament|1985]] when it expanded to 64 teams. Before then, the tournament sized varied from as little as 8 to as many as 53. The field was restricted to conference champions until at-large bids were extended in [[1975 NCAA Division I basketball tournament|1975]] and teams were not fully seeded until [[1979 NCAA Division I basketball tournament|1979]]. In [[2020 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament|2020]], the tournament was cancelled for the first time due to the [[COVID-19 pandemic]]; in the subsequent season, the [[2021 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament|tournament]] was contested completely in the state of [[Indiana]] as a precaution.

All tournament games are broadcast by [[CBS]], [[TBS (American TV channel)|TBS]], [[TNT (American TV network)|TNT]], and [[truTV]] under the program name ''[[NCAA March Madness (TV program)|NCAA March Madness]]''. With a contract through 2032, [[Paramount Global]] and [[Warner Bros. Discovery]] pay $891 million annually for the broadcast rights. The NCAA distributes revenue to participating teams based on how far they advance, which provides significant funding for college athletics. The tournament has become part of American popular culture through bracket contests that award money and prizes for correctly predicting the outcomes of the most games. It is estimated that tens of millions of Americans, including those who don't follow regular-season college basketball or sports in general, participate in a bracket contest each year.

37 different schools have won the tournament. [[UCLA Bruins men's basketball|UCLA]] has the most with 11 championships; their coach [[John Wooden]] has the most titles of any coach with 10. The [[Kentucky Wildcats men's basketball|University of Kentucky]] has eight  titles, the [[North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball|University of North Carolina]] has six titles, and [[Duke Blue Devils men's basketball|Duke University]] and [[Indiana Hoosiers men's basketball|Indiana University]] both have five titles, [[UConn Huskies men's basketball|University of Connecticut]] and the [[Kansas Jayhawks men's basketball|University of Kansas]] both have four titles, and [[Villanova Wildcats men's basketball|Villanova University]] has three national titles.

[[User:Ha2772a|Ha2772a]] ([[User talk:Ha2772a|talk]]) 21:55, 21 September 2022 (UTC)


===Article Structure===
The article needs to be rearranged and focused. It's unclear why some content is in this very long article instead of being in other articles, and we definitely need a more robust history section that actually describes the history of the tournament and not just certain feats. As i look through the whole article it becomes much clearer that this is basically a bettor's guide to the tournament for bracket pools in many places.

# History
## 1939-1974: Competing with the NIT
## 1975-1984: At-Large Bids
## 1985-2000: 64 Team Field
## 2000-Present: Modern Tournament
# Tournament Format
## Qualifying
## Seeding
## Rounds
# Winners
# Television Coverage and Revenue
# Traditions and Awards
## Championship Traditions
## Final Four Awards
## Regional Awards
# Records
## Team records
### Tournament appearance streaks
### Most 1 Seeds
### Most games won
### Most Final Four & Championship Game appearances
### Successful Low-Seeded Teams
## Player records
## Coach Records
# Influence
## NBA Draft
## Popular Culture
# Venues

The statistics section is the biggest problem. Most of these stats are included in the [[NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament upsets]] and [[NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament records]] articles in a much more readable and better organized format. I suggest we include only the most important statistics, using mostly prose to write those subsections, and link out to those articles. For example, we only need to give a summary for the low-seeded teams. We give specific mention to UMBC, St. Peter's, Syracuse, Wichita State, Villanova, UConn, and the collection of 11 seeds to make the final four, since they have achieved the farthest advance for their seed lines. We can give general mention to the remaining upsets and teams, such as "Ten 15 seeds have beaten a two seed, and twenty 14 seeds have beaten a three seed in their first-round matchups." I think we axe the rest of the seed content, moving it to the respective articles they belong in. We can then add in individual performance records for players, and then simplify the coach records to just be the most important, like games won, championships, and final fours.

The Results by school & year should be its own article completely.

I think we should break up the tournament evolution section. The table of field size can go in the more robust history section, the seeding history should move to another article or its own article entirely. The other changes sections could all be summarized in the new history section, and they repeat a lot of content anyway that's already included in the format section.

The Venues section should give a summary about final four venues but link out to the full table. Some of the language from the current Evolution of the Tournament/Venues section can be used but a lot of it's dated now that the dome policy is no longer in effect. There's no reason to have it here, and if we want a table with venues for each year we should just make it a table of championship game results with winners. That's what it's functioning as right now.

I've also made some suggestions for history subsections, with four eras to split it into.

The Popular Culture section can be changed to Influence to include the NBA Draft section. While the pop culture section probably needs some clean up, it's one of the better sections in the article [[User:Ha2772a|Ha2772a]] ([[User talk:Ha2772a|talk]]) 22:57, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

== Future Final Fours ==

Where do we find out where future Final Fours are played?  Used to be nice and easy to find on this page, but has now vanished.  One of those things that, you know, should probably remain on this page. [[User:Wikimace08|Wikimace08]] ([[User talk:Wikimace08|talk]]) 10:02, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

:ah yeah that was an unintended effect of removing the final four venue list from this page. I did so because it was simply duplicating what was available (venue, champions, date) on the [[List of NCAA Division I men's basketball champions#Championship games]] and actually meant that the only listing of year-by-year champions on the main page was in the venue list. But that doesn't have future venues. Future venues are included in the final four table on [[List of NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament venues]] but it's not in chronological order. The best place to add would be add rows for future championship games. [[User:Ha2772a|Ha2772a]] ([[User talk:Ha2772a|talk]]) 22:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

== The deletion of the bids by school and conference page ==

Terrible idea.  Thanks to whoever for making that decision in about 5 minutes. [[User:Wikimace08|Wikimace08]] ([[User talk:Wikimace08|talk]]) 04:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

== Requested move 6 April 2023 ==

<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: '''not moved.''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> <nowiki>{</nowiki>{ping&#124;[[User:ClydeFranklin|ClydeFranklin]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> ([[User talk:ClydeFranklin|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/ClydeFranklin|c]]) 22:12, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
----

[[:NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament]] → {{no redirect|March Madness}} – From what I can tell, "March Madness" is the clear [[WP:COMMONNAME|common name]] for the NCAA basketball tournament(s), and arguably has been for the past twenty years. [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=March+madness%2CNCAA+basketball+tournament%2CNCAA+basketball&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&case_insensitive=on&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 Google ngrams] indicates a crossover some time in the 1990s between "NCAA basketball [tournament]" and "March Madness". Indeed, it's one of the few where the nickname has supplanted the official name to the point that it's actually how the NCAA have branded the tournament in the past decade or so (c.f. [[Freezer Bowl]], not "1981 AFC Championship Game") At the very least, I believe this is worth discussion. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 19:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' - the most critical objection is that "March Madness" refers also to the women's tournament.  Regardless, this is a nickname, and the descriptive title should prevail. [[User:Walt Yoder|Walt Yoder]] ([[User talk:Walt Yoder|talk]]) 23:30, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
* '''Oppose move.''' I just don't see this one working out, because "March Madness" is a nickname. The common name is some form of "NCAA basketball tournament". '''[[User:Old Naval Rooftops|<span style="color:#002244">O.N.R.</span>]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Old Naval Rooftops|<span style="color:#002244">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
*:Being a nickname doesn't stop something, ''especially'' when it's become a trademark, from also being the common name. See also: [[Super Bowl I]], not [[1967 AFL–NFL World Championship Game]]; [[Euro 2020]], not [[2020 UEFA European Football Championship]]. "March Madness" is clearly the most common name for the NCAA basketball tournament, or at the very least, ''more'' common that the descriptive name. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 17:53, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I would need to see significant evidence that the "March Madness" phrase would ''remain'' the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for the men's tournament ''only''. Last year, the NCAA began to also use the "March Madness" branding for the women's tournament too after a "comprehensive external review of gender equity issues".[https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10013583-ncaa-womens-basketball-tournament-to-use-march-madness-branding-starting-in-2022] And therefore, I would probably support moving {{-r|March Madness (disambiguation)}} to {{-r|March Madness}} instead. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] ([[User talk:Zzyzx11|talk]]) 13:47, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
* '''Oppose.''' As others have pointed out, the term "March Madness" is also used in reference to the [[NCAA Division I women's basketball tournament|women's tournament]]. Given that this article is only about the men's tournament, changing the title would cause confusion and inaccurately represent the current usage of the term. [[User:Puhala,ny|Puhala,ny]] ([[User talk:Puhala,ny|talk]]) 00:10, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

:'''Oppose''' - as many have pointed out, the NCAA has started using the term for the women's tournament as well. And even if that weren't the case, I think something like "NCAA tournament" would probably be the true [[WP:COMMONNAME]] - it's more common to hear that teams earned bids to the NCAA tournament, not to March Madness. -[[User:Fuzzy510|fuzzy510]] ([[User talk:Fuzzy510|talk]]) 04:56, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
*[[March Madness]] should become a [[WP:CONCEPTDAB]] [[User:Red Slash|<span style="color:#FF4131;">Red</span>]] [[User talk:Red Slash|<b><span style="color:#460121;">Slash</span></b>]] 07:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

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== "[[:2027–28 NCAA Division I men's basketball season]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2027%E2%80%9328_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season&redirect=no 2027–28 NCAA Division I men's basketball season]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 21#2027–28 NCAA Division I men's basketball season}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 15:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2026%E2%80%9327_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season&redirect=no 2026–27 NCAA Division I men's basketball season]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 21#2026–27 NCAA Division I men's basketball season}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 15:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

== Merge proposal ==

I propose merging [[Elite Eight]] into this page ([[NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament]]). The Elite Eight page does not really provide any meaningful information aside from noting "underdog" teams that made it to the round. Additionally, we have a page for the Elite Eight, but not the Sweet Sixteen, so it doesn't make sense to me to have one but not the other. [[User:Red0ctober22|Red0ctober22]] ([[User talk:Red0ctober22|talk]]) 23:21, 15 March 2026 (UTC)

:'''Support''' - Most of the article seems to talk about the lowest seeds to ever made the Elite Eight, which is redundant because it's perfectly covered on [[NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament upsets#Elite Eight|the upsets page]]. The information otherwise is so short, that it could be very well added to the [[NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament]] page. ~ '''[[User:Sandy14156|<span style="color:red;">Sandy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Sandy14156|<span style="color:blue;">14156</span>]] ''<small>([[User talk:Sandy14156|<span style="color:orange;">Talk ✉️</span>]])</small>''''' 01:01, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

:'''Strong Support''' - I often disagree on points of redundancy, but Elite Eight is actually a redundant page in this case. [[User:The Voivodeship King|The Voivodeship King]] ([[User talk:The Voivodeship King|talk]]) 09:15, 16 March 2026 (UTC)