Editing Talk:Socialist Party (Ireland)

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==Discussion==
Merged [[Socialist Party (Ireland)]] with this page. Also added some new info from the 2004 elections.

Move to [[Socialist Party (Ireland)]]?
*'''Support''' - [[User:SoM|SoM]] 03:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

''This article has been renamed as the result of a [[wikipedia:requested moves|move request]].'' [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 23:14, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==NPOV==
I stumbled on this page and I felt there was a bias for the party. It is written in many places like a promotion of the party, even with the occasionally added "they believe" or something to give it the appearance of neutrality. I'm not from Ireland or anything and no nothing about the subject, but I think maybe some Irish readers might want to try to add some neutrality.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Gtbob12|Gtbob12]] ([[User talk:Gtbob12|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Gtbob12|contribs]]) 19:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

It's been three months since this NPOV post was added. Nobody has responded to it and no specific issues have been mentioned as needing change to fit with a NPOV. I'm going to remove the NPOV tag in a week or two if nobody points out changes that they feel are necessary to fit the NPOV guidelines. There doesn't appear to be any particular dispute at the moment, just a single general complaint about tone. That's best fixed simply by adding more material to the article.--[[User:Scrawledincrayon|Scrawledincrayon]] ([[User talk:Scrawledincrayon|talk]]) 20:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

:: A lot of the article is ok but a good few parts need to be re-written due to the aformentioned NPOV. A lot of SP members have edited this article (along with others particularly the Labour Party article) to fit their own view which needs to be changed.
[[User:Exiledone|Exiledone]] ([[User talk:Exiledone|talk]]) 23:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

==Merger proposal: Militant Labour (Ireland) and Militant Tendency (Ireland) into Socialist Party (Ireland)==
{{Discussion top|1=The result was '''merge''' into Socialist Party (Ireland). No opposition after 5 weeks [[User:Mpjd500|Mpjd500]] ([[User talk:Mpjd500|talk]]) 10:57, 2 October 2012 (UTC)}}
I propose that the articles [[Militant Labour (Ireland)]] and [[Militant Tendency (Ireland)]] be merged into [[Socialist Party (Ireland)]]. Both articles are stubs that I think can be covered under a ''History'' heading within the Socialist Party article without causing any problems of undue weighting. [[User:Mpjd500|Mpjd500]] ([[User talk:Mpjd500|talk]]) 11:13, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
{{Discussion bottom}}

==Claire Daly==
In the interest of balance shouldn't it include her reasons for leaving the party and not just the reasons the party gave, which she contests. 

In the interest of balance shouldn't this entire thing be rewritten.

== Ideology ==
The Socialist Party is ideologically a Trotskyist party, as is apparent in their discussions, (Many reviews of Trotsky's works etc, [http://socialistparty.ie/?s=Trotsky]) as well as their membership of the [[Committee For a Workers' International]], comments by their members, (Supporting Bolsheviks [http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/socialists-dangerous-brand-of-populism-makes-even-sinn-fein-seem-moderate-30761971.html] + Critical of USSR [http://socialistparty.ie/2011/08/lenin-the-original-dictator/] from a Trotskyist standpoint). 

It is also Leninist given their method of Party organisation(Allows factions, uses democratic centralism etc). 

On top of this, it is also radical as it calls for Socialist revolution and a restructuring of society.

Given that these have been removed from the wikipedia article for lack of reference, we will also have to remain consistent and remove the claims that they are Democratic Socialists or Marxists as well, as these are also unreferenced claims. 

[[User:Cyridius|Cyridius]] ([[User talk:Cyridius|talk]]) 05:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

== Number of elected representatives ==
It appears Paul Murphy is being double-counted as an elected TD for the Socialist Party ''and'' as a member of the AAA.  I don't care especially which party gets the number, but the total for Dáil membership shouldn't exceed 166.  [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 11:13, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
:The 2 Socialist Party TDs are Joe Higgins and Ruth Coppinger. [[User:Snappy|Snappy]] ([[User talk:Snappy|talk]]) 11:58, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

== Very strange ==

Why is this article in the ideology section claiming "democratic socialism" is the primarily political identity of this party? This simply isn't true. It is an explicitly Trotskyist party, it is the Militant tendency in Ireland. It isn't like this is a broad non-descript social democratic party with a few Trotskyists entryists.... it is the Trotskyist entryists after they got kicked out of Labour. [[User:Claíomh Solais|Claíomh Solais]] ([[User talk:Claíomh Solais|talk]]) 00:00, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

:Agreed. Changed to "Socialism". [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 09:18, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

::Could we get some references for using "Trotskyist"? Is it a self-description off their website? [http://socialistparty.ie/about-us/ I can't find it]. [[User:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkgreen;"><b>-- HighKing</b></span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkblue;">++  </span>]]</sup> 19:47, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Hi HighKing. I'll have a look around for some reliable external sources to see if I can find any that support this claim. However, it should be noted that self claims by political parties in regard to their ideologies should not normally be regarded as good enough evidence to go by on their own, unless at least one reliable, external source backs up their claims. I think that Trotskyism is included in the list because of the party's formation from Militant Labour, which was a Trotskyist organisation. However that is basically a [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] argument, and therefore should not stand. If there are no reliable sources backing up an ideology claim, please feel free to remove it. Thank you for bringing up this matter. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 20:25, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

::::I've added a supporting ideology for the claim of the party being Trotskyist. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 20:36, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::{{u|Helper201}} Is there a better reference available than a single Opinion piece article in the Irish Times? Hardly enough on its own to merit this tag surely? [[User:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkgreen;"><b>-- HighKing</b></span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkblue;">++  </span>]]</sup> 20:47, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::That is all I've been able to find in regards to supporting the claim of the party being Trotskyist. What do you think constitutes this as an opinion piece (genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic)? Is it because the authors name is in the title? If that does genuinely mean its an opinion piece it doesn't have any validity and I'll remove it. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 07:10, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::Well, because the item is under the "Opinion" section of the website from the URL you added to the article. And its in the URL too.
:::::::I think I've found a better source. I don't have time right now but I shall add it next time I'm on Wikipedia. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 08:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::OK, perhaps I'll keep checking back here, no immediate hurry although I'm having a related discussion on my Talk page with [[User:Laurel Lodged]] about adding a Trotskyist" label to [[Ruth Coppinger]]'s article lede... [[User:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkgreen;"><b>-- HighKing</b></span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkblue;">++  </span>]]</sup> 17:32, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::Have a look at [http://www.socialistworld.net/index.php/theory-analysis/theory] - fully supported by the director of CWI. Several books on Trotsky. [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 07:58, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::What am I looking at? Just seems to be a webpage on socialist theory with links to lots of articles that includes stuff on Trotsky on a "Socialist World" website. How does that connect back to the Socialist party in Ireland? [[User:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkgreen;"><b>-- HighKing</b></span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:HighKing|<span style="font-family:Courier; color:darkblue;">++  </span>]]</sup> 17:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

== Political ideology not cited and no evidence given of why left-wing should have been removed ==

OK, so no idea why I'm the one that is expected to start this topic here on talk, as I'm not the one that is proposing making a change to what has long been stated on the main page. My position is that for the sake of neutrality the political position should be removed until evidence is given for whichever position should be stated and good reason why the other (left-wing or far-left) should be removed. Otherwise I would propose that it should go back to the way it long stood, as left-wing to far-left. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 19:07, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

:Simple. Read any of the links in the article for Trotskist or Socialist International. Come back to us if this blindingly-obvious isn't enough for you. [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 10:42, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

::Well, first of all the article that claims the party to be Trotskist appears to be an opinion piece by the fact the authors name is in the title. Secondly, that very same article actually claims the party to be left-wing. Yes Trotskism is an ideology that most would claim to be on the far-left, does that mean the party is, no. That, along with your implication that being a member of Socialist International somehow defines them as only being far-left is a [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] argument. If you were going to use that argument as a basis for the party's position you could also point to the ideology of democratic socialism, which is not widely regarded as a far-left ideology, or the fact that they are also a member of European United Left–Nordic Green Left, a left-wing group, but as I said already, you shouldn't as that is a synthesis argument. Your sarcasm and sense of self-righteousness is also highly unhelpful. [[User:Helper201|Helper201]] ([[User talk:Helper201|talk]]) 17:29, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Laurel Lodged, this was already discussed above, and indeed 18 months ago. A list of books taken from a party's website can't be used as a "citation" that the party is Trotskyist. A sister organisation's ideology can't be used to infer that ''this'' organisation is Trotskyist. That's classic [[WP:SYNTHESIS]]. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 23:06, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

:An article on the party website about James Connolly compares him approvingly with Trotsky.<ref>http://socialistparty.ie/2018/06/bold-brave-undaunted-life-ideas-james-connolly/</ref> But I think that it is the Trotskyist method that makes a party Troskyist. This article mentions the theory of [[permanent revolution]], a classic Trotskyist idea. Another Trotskyist theme is found under "about us", on their website. They emphasise that only the working class can resolve society's problems. Their work on women's rights is better understood from reading Trotsky's "[[Transitional programme]]" which also explains statements such as "Recent events in Egypt, in Turkey, in Greece and in Brazil illustrate that mass movements and even revolution are on the agenda in the 21st century". They are taking the current understanding of the working class and leading them on to revolutionary conclusions. [[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 19:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

::And? When you have a reliable secondary [[WP:RS|source]] that describes the party as Trotskyist, then we can talk. Your interpretation of articles on their website is [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] and doesn't qualify for inclusion. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 20:36, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

:::How about this. A brief biography of Peter Hadden in the Encyclopaedia of Trotskyism On-line (ETOL). Peter was one of the founders of the Militant in Ireland. "committed to building the forces of Trotskyism and the unity of the working class, along with the other initial forces of the Irish Militant. After a few years working for the NIPSA union, he worked full time as a leading member of the National Executive of the Irish Militant/Socialist Party for the rest of his life, serving as a guiding influence on the party, both north and south."<ref>https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/hadden/index.htm</ref> His writings are collected in the ETOL [[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 22:16, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

::::Ask yourself "Is this a reliable secondary [[WP:RS|source]] that describes the Socialist Party as Trotskyist?" The answer in this case is obviously "No." Please do also ''read'' the linked [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] pages. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 22:27, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand why ETOL, which is a part of the Marxist Internet Archive, is not a reliable secondary source. [[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 00:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
:::::This is just comical. Why is Bastun so determined to hide the party's Trotskist core? Should personal allegiances be declared here? [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 21:03, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

::::::Sorry, I don't understand why an ETOL biography of one person that fails to mention that the Socialist Party is Trotskyist is being advanced as a RS that the Socialist Party is Trotskyist... {{u|Laurel Lodged}}, I'm sorry, I refer you both again to my comment of 10th December, above.  ''Ask yourself "Is this a reliable secondary [[WP:RS|source]] that describes the Socialist Party as Trotskyist?" The answer in this case is obviously "No." Please do also ''read'' the linked [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTHESIS]] pages.'' It really is that simple. For the record, I am not, and have never been a member of the Socialist Party, AAA, the Socialist Workers Party, PBP, AAA-PBP, Solidarity, Solidarity-PBP, or Militant Labour. But it's nice to be accused of membership of this party on one talk page and a right-wing FG supporter on others, I guess I'm doing something right... ;-) Regards, [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 11:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Is it true they wouldn't let you join because they are for the workers not the pedants?[[User:Vahvistus|Vahvistus]] ([[User talk:Vahvistus|talk]]) 20:51, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

==Deletion of seat distribution in NI, Westminster, EP==

Can Spleodrach and Bastun explain why they are deleting this? The SP party is an an-all Ireland party and so the infobox should list the seat distribution, which is the standard practice for all parties. [[Special:Contributions/51.37.58.139|51.37.58.139]] ([[User talk:51.37.58.139|talk]]) 17:08, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
:It is standard practice to only list the ones where they do have seats. [[User:Spleodrach|Spleodrach]] ([[User talk:Spleodrach|talk]])

:What Spleodrach said. This was explained to you in edit summaries, too. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 09:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

== Communist? ==

It is [[Trotskyist]] so should this be [[communism]] [[User:AlienBlox2.0|AlienBlox2.0]] ([[User talk:AlienBlox2.0|talk]]) 20:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

== renaming to Solidarity – The Socialist Alternative and merging with Solidarity (Ireland) article ==

It seems that the Socialist Party will be rebranding to ''Solidarity – The Socialist Alternative''. Obviously, the renaming of the article will depend on reliable non-self sources to mention this change (though the non-self thing is a slightly silly rule).

At the same time, it seems that the website for their front organisation [[Solidarity (Ireland)|Solidarity]]'s website solidarity.ie has been redirected to the socialistparty.ie website, which has now changed its domain name to solidarity.ie. This suggests that the Solidarity brand is also being wound up as well in favour of this new Socialist Party rebrand. Of course, that would still all be subject to reliable sources.

No matter what happens, though, I suggest we merge Solidarity (Ireland) with this page, as AAA / Solidarity were nothing more than electoral labels for the Socialist Party. There's no real need in keeping it separate, especially when technically they were not registered as political parties but part of an alliance that is registered as a political party. Much of that page can be inserted, integrated, and combined with the text on this page. [[User:Lough Swilly|Lough Swilly]] ([[User talk:Lough Swilly|talk]]) 02:56, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

:Our article on Solidarity (Ireland) states that the  Socialist Party "held discussions in August 2015 with the People Before Profit about forming a new political grouping. On 17 September 2015, the two parties announced that they had formally registered as a single political party for electoral purposes." Not quite the same thing as being an electoral label for the Socialist Party alone. We should probably keep the two separate for now. And if that is the case, and we decide a rename for this article is necessary (as of now, I'm not convinced it is, unless ''the party itself is renaming'' rather than 'rebranding' in its external media) we can't have two articles with the same name, or names close enough to be confused, so we'd need to distinguish them by date, e.g. [[Solidarity (Ireland, founded 2014)]] and [[Solidarity – The Socialist Alternative  (Ireland, founded 2026)]] or something similar. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 03:08, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support merging [[Socialist Party (Ireland)]] into [[Solidarity (Ireland)]]''' - Even before this name change/rebrand, I've considered proposing a merge of the two entities as one is inseparable from the other. If the Socialist party is going to simply call itself Solidarity now, it's going to get very confusing, and a merge is the simplest way to cut through that. We don't have to complicate things with dates in the article title; Simply merge this article into [[Solidarity (Ireland)]] and note the alternatives names in the body and infobox of the merged article. [[User:CeltBrowne|CeltBrowne]] ([[User talk:CeltBrowne|talk]]) 09:33, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
::The existing Solidarity (Ireland) article is discussing a different entity: one formed as a joint grouping with People Before Profit. We absolutely need to differentiate between this and the new 'rebranding' of the SP. They aren't the same thing. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 13:17, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Support - It does seem evident, based on their own website's statement, that the Socialist Party name/brand is being retired, and that the party itself will be known as "Solidarity - The Socialist Alternative", or Solidarity as shorthand, from now on, with the new URL reinforcing this. <ref>https://www.solidarity.ie/2026/03/statement-on-campaigning-as-solidarity-the-socialist-alternative/</ref> [[User:Culloty82|Culloty82]] ([[User talk:Culloty82|talk]]) 13:47, 12 March 2026 (UTC)