Editing Talk:Tropical Storm Alma

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{{Notable Citation|Comisión Nacional del Agua, in [http://smn.cna.gob.mx/ciclones/tempo2008/pacifico/alma/alma.pdf its report on Tropical Storm Alma]}}

==Alma is not the first tropical cyclone, let alone the first TS, to strike Central America from the Pacific side==
At the very least, [http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/tracks1851to2007_atl_reanal.txt storm 10 of 1949 did so].  Paul in 1982 did so as a TD in southern Mexico, depending on where you think Central America lies.  There are others that have as well.  The mistake surprises me.  Some of the issue might lie in the fact that Atlantic Storm 10 of 1949 (which apparently killed 40000 people and appears to be the most deadly tropical cyclone impact in the history of the western hemisphere) is not listed in the eastern Pacific database.  I've e-mailed Eric Blake about it, since he's also involved in the reanalysis of the eastern Pacific version of HURDAT.  [[User:Thegreatdr|Thegreatdr]] ([[User talk:Thegreatdr|talk]]) 21:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
:The article never said that Alma was the first tropical cyclone to strike Central America from the Pacific side; it only said first TS, which was based on the NHC discussion. However, given the example you provided, I'm fine with having that removed. Let us know what you find out. Also, a user mentioned on my talk page that Simone in 1968 made landfall in Central America as a tropical storm, so clearly the NHC didn't do their research. ♬♩ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>) 22:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
::I mentioned Hattie/Simone/Inga (1961) to Eric as well.  My guess is that they don't consider southern Mexico as central America.  [[User:Thegreatdr|Thegreatdr]] ([[User talk:Thegreatdr|talk]]) 22:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

What about Aridan? That made landfall as a hurricane,right. what about Barbara?

::They probably the first TS to strike Nicaragua.----[[User:Irdicent|<b><span style="color: pink;">Ir</span></b>]][[User talk:Irdicent|<b><span style="color: #00e0a0;">di</span></b>]][[Special:Contributions/Irdicent|<b><span style="color: pink;">ce</span></b>]][[User:Irdicent/Sandbox|<b><span style="color: #00e0a0;">nt</span></b>]] 23 20:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

== Plane crash ==

[http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2008/05/31/tropical_storm_alma_dies_out_over_central_america/]. Shall we list these are direct deaths or indirect deaths, or wait? [[User:Hurricane Angel Saki|Hurricane Angel Saki]] [[User talk:Hurricane Angel Saki|My own personal NHC]] 03:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
:Based on the description, they would be best classified as indirect deaths. Alma's rain appeared to be responsible but it did not happen as a direct result of the storm. [[User:CrazyC83|CrazyC83]] ([[User talk:CrazyC83|talk]]) 03:28, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

== Update ==

The remnants of Tropical Strom Alma became Tropical Storm Arthur in the Western Caribbean Sea. I will be noting this.--[[User:Lionheart Omega|Lionheart Omega]] ([[User talk:Lionheart Omega|talk]]) 18:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

== More deaths to add ==

*[http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/31/content_8288464.htm] 3 dead in Nicaragua, 10 missing.
*[http://uk.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKN30448773._CH_.242020080531] Possibly another source to back the former up. A girl died near the border, and two people were killed by power lines.
*[http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/05/30/honduras.crash.ap/index.html] Death toll from the plane crash up to 7.
*[http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/VDUX-7F5SSD?OpenDocument&emid=TC-2008-000077-CRI] No reference of the girl, but mentions the two electrocutions and a death in a car crash.
(Just adding more news. I mostly work on the older articles, plus my current events editting is kind of bleh.)
[[User:Hurricane Angel Saki|Hurricane Angel Saki]] ([[User talk:Hurricane Angel Saki|talk]]) 19:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

== How about... ==
Why don't we merge the two systems (Alma and [[Tropical Storm Arthur (2008)|Arthur]]) together? Do they not belong in one article? [[User:Pilover819|Weatherlover819]] ([[User talk:Pilover819|talk]]) 09:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
:That's a good question. I personally don't think so, Alma wasn't ''really'' the same system, but just a supplier of tropical convection. [[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] [[User talk:Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''T'''ropical</sup>]] [[Special:contributions/Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''C'''yclone</sup>]] 12:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
::No.  Alma dissipated over Central America, then its remnants combined with a monsoon trough created Arthur. -<small>[[User:CWY2190|<span style="color: black;">CWY2190</span>]]</small><small><small>([[User talk:CWY2190|<span style="color: red;">talk</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/CWY2190|<span style="color: darkblue;">contributions</span>]])</small></small> 12:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

This should accaly be merged into [[Hurricane Alma-Arthur]]--[[User:Yellow Evan|Yellow Evan]] ([[User talk:Yellow Evan|talk]]) 20:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
:No, it was not the same storm. &ndash;[[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] [[User talk:Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''T'''ropical</sup>]] [[Special:contributions/Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''C'''yclone</sup>]] 21:59, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

== [[:Image:Alma 2008 track.png|track map]] ==
Not again, could someone '''please''' upload a better track map for Alma? [[User:Storm05|Storm05]] ([[User talk:Storm05|talk]]) 11:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

== [[Servicio Meteorológico Nacional|SMN]]'s TCR ==

Available [http://smn.cna.gob.mx/ciclones/tempo2008/pacifico/alma/alma.pdf here]. Oh, and they're using our track map... [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 19:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
:There's a wikitag of some sort we can add to the talk page because of that, isn't there?  [[User:Thegreatdr|Thegreatdr]] ([[User talk:Thegreatdr|talk]]) 22:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

::That would be {{tl|Notable Citation}}. -- [[User:RattleMan|RattleMan]] 23:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

==Timeline==
Something some of the articles in WPAC have and i thought I might introduce it here. [[User:Itfc+canes=me|Itfc+canes=me]] ([[User talk:Itfc+canes=me|talk]]) 18:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== Retirment ==

Do you think Alma is going to get retired?  The WMO tends to retired these type of storms. The death toll was also a little high. [[User talk:Yellow Evan|Leave Message]] or[[User:Yellow Evan|Yellow Evan home]] 13:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:Not a chance. Alma was  a minor storm, a death toll of 9 and damage of $33 mill wont get a storm retired, esp one that hit honduras/nicaragua. [[User:Cyclonebiskit|Cyclonebiskit]] ([[User talk:Cyclonebiskit|talk]]) 15:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::...And, Alma is retired. I'm confused, too. [[Special:Contributions/130.64.137.177|130.64.137.177]] ([[User talk:130.64.137.177|talk]]) 23:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Link, please? –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 23:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd heard that too.  Is the WMO meeting report out yet?  [[User:Thegreatdr|Thegreatdr]] ([[User talk:Thegreatdr|talk]]) 01:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
::The NHC have just updated their website and Alma is history [[User:Jason Rees|Jason Rees]] ([[User talk:Jason Rees|talk]]) 01:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
:Why was it retired? Just because it was notable in formation and landfall? Did Nicaragua request it? Why? [[Special:Contributions/76.235.197.175|76.235.197.175]] ([[User talk:76.235.197.175|talk]]) 01:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

== Record ==

Hurricane Olivia beats this record, as it formed at 85.2W. [[User:Potapych|Potapych]] ([[User talk:Potapych|talk]]) 21:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Olivia is a continuation of Irene, it formed in the Atlantic. [[User:HurricaneSpin|Hurricane]] [[User talk:HurricaneSpin|Typhoon]] [[Special:Contributions/HurricaneSpin|Cyclone]] 21:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
:That's not what the article says. It's currently original research (since it is not backed up by any citations). [[User:Potapych|Potapych]] ([[User talk:Potapych|talk]]) 21:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
::It's supported by the best track, as the last points of Irene's track are the first of Olivia's. Plus, [http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/E15.html NOAA] confirms Irene-Olivia. I think it's fairly obvious was the continuation of an Atlantic cyclone, for the sole reason if it existing over land during its first few points. --♬♩ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>) 22:29, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
:::Perhaps the passage could reworded as "the farthest east a native eastern pacific tropical cyclone has formed."  That is, unless the October 1949 system (in the Atlantic HURDAT) beat it.  =)  [[User:Thegreatdr|Thegreatdr]] ([[User talk:Thegreatdr|talk]]) 01:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

==Retirement record==
It says in the article that "Alma is the third tropical storm in the Eastern Pacific to be retired after Hazel of 1965 and Knut of 1987". I don't think those two storms count as retired names; they were removed from the list for unknown reasons. Alma is the 1st tropical storm in the East Pac. to be ''retired'', not removed for unknown reasons. Does anyone else agree about this? Was Alma the 1st one? [[Special:Contributions/76.235.197.175|76.235.197.175]] ([[User talk:76.235.197.175|talk]]) 22:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:Agreed completely; I've temporarily commented out the sentence in question, pending further investigation. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 04:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
::How about [[Hurricane Kenna|Kenna]]?  I think that was retired on its own merit.  [[User:Thegreatdr|Thegreatdr]] ([[User talk:Thegreatdr|talk]]) 05:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Kenna was retired due to its damage, AFAIK. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 06:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:The source (which is an official WMO document) says they were ''retired'' and it gives the years. There is no source yet that says Alma was ''retired''. The reference that was given twice links to the lists of names at the NHC website. I do agree the whole thing should be removed, or at least commented out. It seems like people are making up records, or putting a lot of their assumptions in the article, which would be [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Potapych|Potapych]] ([[User talk:Potapych|talk]]) 12:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
::The reference that shows Gustav, Ike, and Paloma doesn't show Alma on the Pacific list; it just says Amanda, Boris, Cristina, ect, but it doesn't really say anything about the names being retired, so I'm questioning that. Then again, I might be wrong; Alma probrably was retired, and so were the others in the Atlantic. [[Special:Contributions/76.235.197.175|76.235.197.175]] ([[User talk:76.235.197.175|talk]]) 16:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
:Speaking for [[List of retired Pacific hurricane names|the article]] 17 years later, saying that Alma was retired due to catastrophic rains in Central America, this addresses the damage, but not in a direct way. Should we put that in a gray box instead of cyan? [[User:Iseriously|Iseriously]] ([[User talk:Iseriously|talk]]) 22:14, 18 March 2026 (UTC)
NHC recently posted a news article on Gustav, Ike, Paloma, and Alma. Alma, according to the article, was "retired", not "removed". Thus, I think this ends the discussion. http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2009/20090501_names.html [[User:Hurricane Angel Saki|Hurricane Angel Saki]] ([[User talk:Hurricane Angel Saki|talk]]) 22:05, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
:Also see [http://www.news10.net/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=58708 here]: "A committee voted to retire them because the storms caused such heavy damage." –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 22:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

::What? Alma only did 33 million dollars in damage, and that isn't bad at all, even by Nicaragua's standards. East Pac. retirements occur once in a while, and we will never know what names will be retired. Kenna of 2002 caused only 101 million in damage, and that wasn't bad back then or by Mexico's standards. Nontheless, it was ''retired'' so it was the 1st tropical storm to be retired in the Eastern Pacific basin, and that should be mentioned. [[Special:Contributions/76.235.197.175|76.235.197.175]] ([[User talk:76.235.197.175|talk]]) 23:11, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

{{Talk:Tropical Storm Alma/GA1}}

== Record ==

Does it hold the record of being the shortest living tropical cyclone to be retired? Or only in Epac. [[User:HurricaneSpin|HurricaneSpin]] [[User talk:HurricaneSpin|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/HurricaneSpin|My contributions]] 03:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
:That's a pretty trivial record. We wouldn't make the distinction for [[Hurricane Ivan]] that it was the longest lasting Atlantic name to get retired. ♬♩ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>) 03:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
::I think it's an interesting stat, actually. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 03:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
:::I think it's just putting too much emphasis on something as arbitrary as human naming. ♬♩ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>) 03:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
::::Being retired (especially for a tropical storm) is a fairly substantial feat, so it's not arbitrary at all in my opinion. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 03:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
:::::It's just a human-applied naming phenomena, which is totally arbitrary. If there was another similar storm that did the exact same thing, but wasn't retired (or wasn't named), that storm should be no less notable. What's important in its retirement is where it caused the damage and how much it did. Like I said, we wouldn't make the distinction of [[Hurricane Ivan]] being the longest-lasting Atlantic name to get retired. We just say the other important records. ♬♩ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>) 13:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Why wouldn't we say that...? Seems perfectly valid. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 03:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
<--Question. Even though it was never a tropical storm and wasn't upgraded as such, what if the May 2004 tropical wave was a tropical cyclone? It killed 2,000 as such in the Dominican Republic (see the Hurricane Ernesto (2006) talk page). Or what if T.D. 11 in 1999 had attained tropical storm intensity? That depression killed nearly 400. The fact is, tropical storm names are subject to human error. We may have little to no idea whether a storm in the deep tropics organized and strengthened enough for a name, and even if we did, it's still a crapshoot. The reason I don't think Alma's longevity should be noted is that, just saying, a more devastating storm may have hit Mexico or Central America and would have been retired, but because of bad organization or little data, it never had a name, meaning there's no name to retire. It may have never happened, but it's still possible. [[User:Hurricane Angel Saki|Hurricane Angel Saki]] ([[User talk:Hurricane Angel Saki|talk]]) 03:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
:Those storms weren't named/retired, though; we have to go by the facts. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 03:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
::What's so important about retirement, though? What's more important is what the storm did. Angel Saki is right, in that there are many other more significant tropical cyclones that weren't retired. Are storms in the NIO or SWIO any less important because there isn't a neat list of retired storms in those basins? Of course not. We don't have to list information that's trivial (like Alma being the short-lived retired EPAC storm), as that is making the info more important than it actually is. After all, the NOAA didn't put any unusual emphasis on it being the shortest-lived retired Pacific storm, so we shouldn't either. ♬♩ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>) 16:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
:::It's not that important about retirement, TD 16 caused more death than Fay, Paul alone killed more than Hazel and was not retired. I think it's getting a little bit off topic so how about putting comments in the project page. [[User:HurricaneSpin|HurricaneSpin]] [[User talk:HurricaneSpin|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/HurricaneSpin|My contributions]] 17:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

:I agree, depressions usually gets devastation when they hit land than tropical storms, maybe due to lack of evacuation? Hurricane Paul is an example. [[User:HurricaneSpin|HurricaneSpin]] [[User talk:HurricaneSpin|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/HurricaneSpin|My contributions]] 04:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on [[Tropical Storm Alma]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=701363968 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090401144401/http://www.nhc.noaa.gov:80/tracks1949to2008_epa.txt to http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/tracks1949to2008_epa.txt

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Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier;">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green;">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 02:58, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

== Merge Alma and Arthur? ==

Both articles use the same rainfall map. Both storms were related, very much like [[Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal]], and I imagine a similar lead could be used. Both articles are on the short side, but if they were combined, then both articles could cover the flood event, regardless if it was Alma, or Arthur, or indeterminate. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  19:58, 25 January 2026 (UTC)

:No. They are not the same system and their impacts do not overlap. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 20:17, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::Alma reformed into Arthur, and both articles have significant impact overlap (Central America). ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  21:09, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::The remnants of Alma were absorbed into a tropical wave that later became Tropical Storm Arthur.[https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL012008_Arthur.pdf] Neither Alma nor Arthur's TCR states that there were overlapping impacts. This merge isn't necessary; both articles are better off separate. If size is an issue, one could always expand. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 22:52, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Exactly, the remnants of Alma led to the generation of Arthur. And as for NHC and overlapping impacts, check the last page of the TCR. Both storms produced an area of rainfall across Central America. When did the rainfall in Honduras/Guatemala stop being from Alma and start being from Arthur? Contemporary news sources, [https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/06/05/2003413883 such as this one], connect both storms, as did [https://reliefweb.int/report/belize/paho-weekly-report-07-jun-13-jun-2008 PAHO]. [https://smn.conagua.gob.mx/tools/DATA/Ciclones%20Tropicales/Ciclones/2008-Alma.pdf Alma's report] from SMN says how the storm drew moisture over Mexico. I get keeping them separate, but I think putting them together builds a stronger narrative for the flood event (yes, I called it a single event even though it was two storms). ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  02:00, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::[https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/EP012008_Alma.pdf Alma's TCR] and [https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL012008_Arthur.pdf Arthur's TCR] state that the tropical wave that became Arthur did not originate from Alma's remnants. The tropical wave only absorbed it. That does not make them one continuous system. No fatalities or damage were attributed to both cyclones per the [https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/EP012008_Alma.pdf Alma TCR] and [https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/AL012008_Arthur.pdf Arthur TCR]. Rainfall compromised little of Alma and Arthur's effects, so there is minimal overlap. Merging both articles would blur the line about which fatality and damage was from which cyclone, and suggests that these storms were one system. That would be a bigger problem than a weaker narrative for the floods. Creating a paragraph about the flood event caused by each cyclone and using it in both articles is a better alternative. There would be fewer problems; no merge is required. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 02:51, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::Again, I point to [[:File:Alma Arthur (2008) TRMM rain 27may-4june08.jpg|this image]] showing the rainfall over Central America/Mexico from May 27th to June 8th, not to mention the Alma TCR saying that the storm was part of a "broad monsoon-like flow" and a "large cyclonic gyre". It sounds exactly like the [[Central America gyre]] that produced Amanda/Cristobal. Even though the wave was involved in Arthur's development, it's clear that Alma had a major role in Arthur's development, and most sources mention Alma's remnants as part of Arthur. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  16:22, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support''' per Amanda/Cristobal as well as [[Cyclones Judy and Kevin]], another similar instance where impacts happened in the same place in very quick succession trying to determine which is which would be more difficult by doing separate articles for each system. Combined makes it easier. '''''[[User:MarioProtIV|MarioProtIV]]''''' (<sup>[[User talk:MarioProtIV|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/MarioProtIV|contribs]]</sub>) 23:06, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::This comment repeats the same points Hurricanehink raised and I addressed. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 16:01, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Weak support''', as long as we keep very, very, VERY clear that these two are considered separate entities. I like the idea of adopting the same precedent set by Amanda/Cristobal's case, as long as it doesn't lead to that [[Talk:Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal/Archive 1|whole debacle]] again. Otherwise, I oppose the merging. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 23:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
::Is there an actual benefit from doing this? Otherwise, this argument is just [[WP:LIKECONTENT|personal taste]]. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 00:03, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:::If you look on my recent discussions regarding merging different systems into one article, like [[Talk:Cyclone Vardah#Requested move 17 January 2026|Vardah/ARB 02]], [[Talk:Hurricane Ida and Nor'Ida#Requested move 17 January 2026|Ida/Nor'Ida]] and [[Talk:Typhoon Nuri (2014)#Merge November 2014 Bering Sea cyclone?|Nuri/Post-Nuri]], you'll see that I'm not fond of this kind of move, but I agree that merging the articles could improve the coverage of the impacts, especially the ones that happened on the time between Alma's dissipation and Arthur's formation. That's why I support it, conditionally. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 00:25, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
::::So you're repeating Hurricanehink's points, which I addressed. Noted. [[User:FourNoddlers|FourNoddlers]] ([[User talk:FourNoddlers|talk]]) 00:31, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::I just think that his arguments hold better than yours, I don't see anything wrong with that. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 00:37, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' same as the much earlier one, not the same storm... are you just crazy...? [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:06, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Its just weird but I now hate this damn idea and I now '''strong oppose''' this merge... [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::To the above temporary account, [[WP:NPA|no personal attacks]] - "are you just crazy". It would be more helpful if you created a username if you wanted to participate in these discussions so you have a stable username instead of a temporary account. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  06:41, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry! But just look at the ''How about...'' discussion up there!! [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:46, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::People were discussing 18 years ago whether to merge the articles. It makes sense to have the discussion again. Again, please create a user name if you're going to participate in these merge discussions so you can have a stable user name instead of a temporary account. Thanks. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  06:50, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::Stop mentioning about the account creation or else I'll do this: 🖔 [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 12:33, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::I would say this again: they ''are'' not the same storm. According to many sources, a tropical wave absorbed ex-Alma before becoming Arthur. So yeah... I would strongly oppose the merge. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 12:40, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Two points. First, if you want to be taken seriously on talk pages, then you should make a username. I'm going to mention it every time I see a temporary account commenting on a merge discussion, because it's very unusual for a new editor to get involved in such a discussion. There is a problem with sockpuppets and trolls on Wikipedia. Second, the proposal would be to call it [[Tropical storms Alma and Arthur]], making it (to quote [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista above]]) ''very, very, VERY clear that these two are considered separate entities''. They are separate storms but they cover the same event, as evidenced by the relationship between the two storms, the overlapping impacts, and the shared rainfall map used in both articles. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  17:58, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::Disagree cuz they're ''NOT'' the same storm! (sorry if there's a personal attack) [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 02:37, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::But they're part of the same event, [[Tropical storms Alma and Arthur]]. ♫ [[User:Hurricanehink|Hurricanehink]] (<small>[[User_talk:Hurricanehink|talk]]</small>)  04:15, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::Go ahead if you want, idk what to say again.
::::::::::But Arthur was an off-season Atlantic tropical storm, so you know what would put in the "see also" section, just don't mess up with the merged article after all. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 06:07, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::The see also section would include ATL-EPAC crossover storms, and List of Central America hurricanes. Is that your only reason for opposing? [[User:Hurricanehink mobile|Hurricanehink mobile]] ([[User talk:Hurricanehink mobile|talk]]) 23:22, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::::Not the same storm I repeat. [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2026-91768-8|&#126;2026-91768-8]] ([[User talk:&#126;2026-91768-8|talk]]) 03:33, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::::The same narrative though. [[User:Hurricanehink mobile|Hurricanehink mobile]] ([[User talk:Hurricanehink mobile|talk]]) 03:38, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::By naming the article [[Tropical storms Alma and Arthur]] and structuring it similarly to other articles like [[Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal]], [[Cyclones Judy and Kevin]] and [[Cyclones Rona and Frank]], it wouldn't claim that these two are the same system. The reader wouldn't receive such false impression if the article is handled as the precedents set above. [[User:ABC paulista|ABC paulista]] ([[User talk:ABC paulista|talk]]) 02:48, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
:'''Strong support''' I would have to agree with this. Since Alma has reformed into Arthur, I would say to put this as Tropical storms Alma and Arthur. Also, I get that both Alma and Arthur are good articles, but it would be fine to merge them together. [[User:Bronco3706|Bronco3706]] ([[User talk:Bronco3706|talk]]) 17:31, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:'''Strong support''' per the following: [[Tropical storms Amanda and Cristobal|Amanda/Cristobal (2020)]], [[Cyclones Judy and Kevin|Judy/Kevin (2023)]], [[Cyclones Rona and Frank|Rona/Frank (1999)]], and [[Cyclones Gulab and Shaheen|Gulab/Shaheen (2021)]]. I also support a merge of [[Hurricane Agatha|Agatha]] and [[Tropical Storm Alex (2022)|Alex (2022)]] per everything. [[User:Iseriously|Iseriously]] ([[User talk:Iseriously|talk]]) 22:08, 18 March 2026 (UTC)