Editing Talk:Ukrainian conscription crisis

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== "tactfully overstretched frontline" - style ==

"tactfully overstretched frontline" - "tactically" probably was meant. Suggest "tactically over-stretched front line" for style reasons, but that needs to be validated as correct content.  [[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 06:23, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

:Since this kind of wording doesn't seem to be supported by the cited references, I removed it for now. [[User:TylerBurden|TylerBurden]] ([[User talk:TylerBurden|talk]]) 20:01, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

== Clarification needed on the use of “human wave” tactics ==

The current version of the article suggests that Russia’s advances are largely due to the use of “human wave” tactics, Specificly inside the "Troop shortage" section. While it’s true that Russian forces have at times employed frontal infantry assaults especially involving Storm-Z and penal units this description risks oversimplifying a much more complex operational reality and may unintentionally mislead readers.
Several reputable sources (including ISW, RUSI, and analysis by Michael Kofman himself) have pointed out that Russia has evolved tactically by:
Using small-unit infiltration tactics supported by drones and precision artillery,
using light assault units mounted on motorbikes ATVs and other light vehicles
and has fixed major issues within their supply chain that where highlighted within the overextention of their forces in Kiev and Kharkiv.

Up until this point all of the recorded "human wave" attacks were just really small probing attacks with 2-4 men supported with drones and artillery. These guys' jobs are to go up to enemy positions and provoke them to see how large or small the response is, almost all large Russian breakthroughs are preceded by these small attacks. The fall of Kalynove both Shcherbaky and Mali Shcherbaky were only possible because of these probing attacks showing gaps within the UAF's defencive line.

Thoughts? [[User:GamerKatze|GamerKatze]] ([[User talk:GamerKatze|talk]]) 16:13, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

== The word "busification" needs to be featured more prominently in the article ==

It is 2024 word of the year in Ukraine.<ref>{{cite web | title=The word of the year in Ukraine is "busification". The another ones popular words are "fatigue" and "quadroberi" | date=6 January 2025 | url=https://babel.ua/en/news/114252-the-word-of-the-year-in-ukraine-is-busification-the-another-ones-popular-words-are-fatigue-and-quadroberi }}</ref><ref>{{cite web | title=Word of the year: 'busification' as a symbol of 2024 | date=7 January 2025 | url=https://hmh.news/en/8835/word-of-the-year-busification-as-a-symbol-of-2024/ }}</ref>

Right now the word is mentioned once in the criticism section, while [[Busification]] is a redirect to this article. The word has significant coverage in sources. [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="background:white;color:black">'''''TurboSuperA+'''''</span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<sub>(connect)</sub>]] 05:08, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

:Well go on then, be bold and create an article for it if it's so featured. [[User:TylerBurden|TylerBurden]] ([[User talk:TylerBurden|talk]]) 19:26, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== The article should have a section on Russian strikes on TCC buildings ==

Fair bit of coverage in the media.[https://unn.ua/en/news/wave-of-attacks-on-tccs-what-is-behind-russian-strikes-and-whether-the-work-of-the-centers-is-under-threat] [https://www.msn.com/en-gb/politics/international-relations/russian-drone-strike-hits-tcc-amid-public-backlash-over-mobilization-in-poltava-ukraine/vi-AA1I9Q7d] [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="background:white;color:black">'''''TurboSuperA+'''''</span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<sub>(connect)</sub>]] 05:12, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

:Yes including the reactions of ordinary civilians to it [[Special:Contributions/79.129.158.242|79.129.158.242]] ([[User talk:79.129.158.242|talk]]) 16:38, 3 August 2025 (UTC)
:No need for Rus propaganda on English wikipedia. Thanks but no thanks)) [[Special:Contributions/&#126;2025-31015-87|&#126;2025-31015-87]] ([[User talk:&#126;2025-31015-87|talk]]) 02:21, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
::unn.ua is a Russian propaganda website? Huh. [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:#D73A49"><b>TurboSuperA+</b></span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier-New"><sub>[talk]</sub></span>]] 09:14, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

== Merge proposal ==

The article [[Ukrainian desertion crisis]] should be merged into this one. The desertion crisis is part of and exacerbates the conscription crisis. Sources also treat them as part of the same issue, e.g. [https://archive.md/0CfRO][https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-desertion-awol-war-russia-romania/33571456.html][https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/31/tired-mood-changed-ukrainian-army-desertion-crisis] Desertions are a way to resist conscription, i.e. {{tq|a deserter’s nightmare is the “conscription patrols”}}[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/12/9/record-numbers-of-ukrainians-desert-army-amid-losses-to-russia]. [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:#D73A49"><b>TurboSuperA+</b></span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier-New"><sub>[talk]</sub></span>]] 07:00, 15 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{block indent|em=1.6|1=<small>Notified: [[:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine]] and [[:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history]]<span style="display:none" data-plural="1"></span>. [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:#D73A49"><b>TurboSuperA+</b></span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier-New"><sub>[talk]</sub></span>]] 07:09, 15 January 2026 (UTC)</small>}}
:'''Oppose'''. While desertion and conscription criris can sometimes talk about different sides of the same coin, so to speak, they often are about distinct things. Its true desrtion crisis stems from conscription one, but conscription crisis primarily concerns the front end of the manpower pipeline. Its focus is on the state's inability to fairly, efficiently, and legally recruit, mobilize, and train sufficient numbers of personnel. Key topics include mobilization laws, draft evasion, corruption in recruitment centers, exemptions, and the societal/political debate over who should serve.
: Desertion crisis concerns the back end of military service. It focuses mostly on the illegal departure of already mobilized and trained soldiers from their units. (Like the notorious and widely described case of 155th Brigade) Article mostly talks about soldiers leaving the front (AWOL), refusal to return from leave, struggles with morale/mental health, state efforts to apprehend deserters, and the legal framework/consequences for deserters. [[User:F.Alexsandr|F.Alexsandr]] ([[User talk:F.Alexsandr|talk]]) 16:30, 15 January 2026 (UTC)
::That's all very well and good, but it is your personal opinion. Do you have any sources that agree with your assessment that the two issues are separate? [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:#D73A49"><b>TurboSuperA+</b></span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier-New"><sub>[talk]</sub></span>]] 10:37, 16 January 2026 (UTC)
:::It is you who proposed a merge, and the burden of proof is on you. [[WP:NOTMERGE]] advises against merging when separate topics have enough substance to be "expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles"
:::All three articels you have linked are detailed reports on the desertion crisis, not the conscription crisis, and they actually reinforce the need for separate articles. Mentions of mobilization are included only as background or contributing factors. For example Al Jazeera articel talks about the scale, legal consequences, and personal stories of desertion; RFE sbout the business of smuggling draft dodgers and deserters across the border; The Guardian about the frontline fatigue, poor command, and psychological toll causing soldiers to desert. These sources show the topics are deeply related but substantively different. Merging them would conflate two complex subjects and go againt the guideline against creating broad, 'clunky' articles. 
:::As for your question here is one more article that treats the issues as separate: [https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukraine-recruitment-army/] Desertion and cosncription deal with different core problems: The conscription crisis is framed as a failure of state policy and civilian compliance while the desertion crisis is a failure of military conditions and unit cohesion  (catastrophic casualty rates, lack of rotation, poor training) [https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/ukrainain-army-40000-desertions-month] [[User:F.Alexsandr|F.Alexsandr]] ([[User talk:F.Alexsandr|talk]]) 17:03, 16 January 2026 (UTC)
:<!-- Template:Notified -->
:'''Support''' merge of that article, there are not enough standalone references describing a ″Ukrainian desertion crisis″, it should be merged into this or other relevant articles where it can be covered in sections. It doesn't help that it appears to have been used as a [[WP:POVFORK]]. --[[User:TylerBurden|TylerBurden]] ([[User talk:TylerBurden|talk]]) 18:33, 16 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support''' merge as proposer, and '''rename''' article to [[Ukraine's manpower crisis]], as that is also supported by sources.[https://tacticsinstitute.com/analysis/ukraines-manpower-crisis-emerges-as-a-strategic-vulnerability/] [https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russias-advance-on-pokrovsk-exposes-ukraines-growing-manpower-crisis/] [https://www.ft.com/content/ebdf1a09-6aeb-4176-ac63-9668e5cc3362] [https://nationalsecurityjournal.org/ukraine-has-a-manpower-problem/] [https://kyivindependent.com/behind-ukraines-manpower-crisis-lies-a-bleak-new-battlefield-reality-for-infantry/] @[[User:F.Alexsandr|F.Alexsandr]] Would you agree that both "conscription crisis" and "desertion crisis" could be considered part of a "manpower crisis"? [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:#D73A49"><b>TurboSuperA+</b></span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier-New"><sub>[talk]</sub></span>]] 20:47, 16 January 2026 (UTC)
::Conscription crisis and desertion crisis are distinct enough to warrant separate articles, inline with [[WP:NOTMERGE]] and my response above which you have failed to engage with. Among other things in [[2022 Ukrainian mobilization]] article they are treated as separate issues also, even before I added Main link. I think we need to call other editors who edited this ball of articles to participate. {{Ping|ApoieRacional}} {{Ping|Cyrobyte}} {{Ping|AlexeyKhrulev}} {{Ping|Marcocapelle}} {{Ping|Hjoim}} {{Ping|Grumpylawnchair}} {{Ping|NikolaiVektovich}} {{Ping|Tobby72}} {{Ping|Poketape}} {{Ping|Smeagol 17}} {{Ping|Flemmish Nietzsche}} {{Ping|Ffaffff}} {{Ping|NHCLS}} {{Ping|Noble Attempt}} {{Ping|XTheBedrockX}} {{Ping|廣九直通車}} {{Ping|Cactinites}} {{Ping|Ymblanter}} {{Ping|Sagotreespirit}} {{Ping|Neyoshadow}} {{Ping|Chidgk1}} {{Ping|Rikieboy1}} {{Ping|Dauzlee}} {{Ping|Tony1}} {{Ping|Whoisjohngalt}} {{Ping|Jebiguess}} {{Ping|LucasBrown}} {{Ping|Teterev53}} {{Ping|Svartner}} {{Ping|WereSpielChequers}} {{Ping|Rodw}} {{Ping|Onel5969}} [[User:F.Alexsandr|F.Alexsandr]] ([[User talk:F.Alexsandr|talk]]) 00:30, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
:::I can't say that I'm confident enough to make a judgment either way. They are definitely distinct topics, but at the same time, it's also true that they are interlinked parts of a wider manpower crisis. [[User:NHCLS|NHCLS]] ([[User talk:NHCLS|talk]]) 05:39, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support''' & '''rename''' to [[Ukrainian manpower crisis]] as per [[User:TurboSuperA+|TurboSuperA+]] [[User:NikolaiVektovich|ɴɪᴋᴏʟᴀɪᴠᴇᴋᴛᴏᴠɪᴄʜ]] ([[User_talk:NikolaiVektovich|ᴛᴀʟᴋ]]/[[Special:Contributions/NikolaiVektovich|ᴄᴏɴᴛʀɪʙ]]) 00:47, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
*I'd much rather not have the male-only "manpower". [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 06:05, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
*:Manpower is gender-neutral ("man" here means "human"). [[User:Smeagol 17|Smeagol 17]] ([[User talk:Smeagol 17|talk]]) 09:00, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
*::Nope. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 10:25, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
*:::Yep. https://www.etymonline.com/word/manpower [[User:Smeagol 17|Smeagol 17]] ([[User talk:Smeagol 17|talk]]) 11:05, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
*:It is the terminology sources use, e.g. [https://kyivindependent.com/behind-ukraines-manpower-crisis-lies-a-bleak-new-battlefield-reality-for-infantry/] [https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russias-advance-on-pokrovsk-exposes-ukraines-growing-manpower-crisis/] [[User:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:#D73A49"><b>TurboSuperA+</b></span>]][[User talk:TurboSuperA+|<span style="font-family:Courier-New"><sub>[talk]</sub></span>]] 10:30, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
*::::It works brilliantly: "Women provided the manpower in the domestic economy". [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 04:49, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
*:::::Yes it does. [[User:Smeagol 17|Smeagol 17]] ([[User talk:Smeagol 17|talk]]) 06:08, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Support''' a merge of the two. The desertion and conscription crises are part of a wider manpower crisis, of which there is a considerable amount of scholarship written on. [[User:Jebiguess|Jebiguess]] ([[User talk:Jebiguess|talk]]) 01:30, 19 January 2026 (UTC)

:'''Oppose''' - The question is really whether the Ukrainian desertion crisis is still notable, and clearly it is getting more so, rather than less, now that the Ukrainian government is providing official statistics on it, so it is gaining the attention of reliable news sources. The same is true of the conscription crisis. On the quite minor points above, desertion and draft dodging are very different things, the first usually punishable by imprisonment or death, the second often not even a serious crime. On his first day in office, 14 January, [[Mykhailo Fedorov]], Ukraine's new Defense Minister, gave figures for both which had not been given before, some 200,000 AWOL and two million evading conscription. The scholarship mentioned by {{U|Jebiguess}} has almost nothing to say about desertion, as the sources have been so limited. So oppose, on [[WP:N]]. [[User:Moonraker|Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Moonraker|talk]]) 20:58, 20 January 2026 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 02:24, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
*:Because of your gender related arguments above? [[User:TylerBurden|TylerBurden]] ([[User talk:TylerBurden|talk]]) 12:02, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. The conscription and desertion are different, although related subjects. An alternative solution could be to ''rename'' the "desertion crisis" to [[Desertion from Ukrainian Armed forces]]. We do not have [[Desertion from Russian Armed forces]], but this is a notable subject, such page could be created as well. [[User:My very best wishes|My very best wishes]] ([[User talk:My very best wishes|talk]]) 02:50, 30 January 2026 (UTC)