Talk:Ukrainian conscription crisis

"tactfully overstretched frontline" - style

"tactfully overstretched frontline" - "tactically" probably was meant. Suggest "tactically over-stretched front line" for style reasons, but that needs to be validated as correct content. John Nagle (talk) 06:23, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Since this kind of wording doesn't seem to be supported by the cited references, I removed it for now. TylerBurden (talk) 20:01, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Clarification needed on the use of “human wave” tactics

The current version of the article suggests that Russia’s advances are largely due to the use of “human wave” tactics, Specificly inside the "Troop shortage" section. While it’s true that Russian forces have at times employed frontal infantry assaults especially involving Storm-Z and penal units this description risks oversimplifying a much more complex operational reality and may unintentionally mislead readers. Several reputable sources (including ISW, RUSI, and analysis by Michael Kofman himself) have pointed out that Russia has evolved tactically by: Using small-unit infiltration tactics supported by drones and precision artillery, using light assault units mounted on motorbikes ATVs and other light vehicles and has fixed major issues within their supply chain that where highlighted within the overextention of their forces in Kiev and Kharkiv.

Up until this point all of the recorded "human wave" attacks were just really small probing attacks with 2-4 men supported with drones and artillery. These guys' jobs are to go up to enemy positions and provoke them to see how large or small the response is, almost all large Russian breakthroughs are preceded by these small attacks. The fall of Kalynove both Shcherbaky and Mali Shcherbaky were only possible because of these probing attacks showing gaps within the UAF's defencive line.

Thoughts? GamerKatze (talk) 16:13, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

The word "busification" needs to be featured more prominently in the article

It is 2024 word of the year in Ukraine.

Right now the word is mentioned once in the criticism section, while Busification is a redirect to this article. The word has significant coverage in sources. TurboSuperA+_(connect) 05:08, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

Well go on then, be bold and create an article for it if it's so featured. TylerBurden (talk) 19:26, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

References

The article should have a section on Russian strikes on TCC buildings

Fair bit of coverage in the media.[1] [2] TurboSuperA+_(connect) 05:12, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

Yes including the reactions of ordinary civilians to it 79.129.158.242 (talk) 16:38, 3 August 2025 (UTC)

No need for Rus propaganda on English wikipedia. Thanks but no thanks)) ~2025-31015-87 (talk) 02:21, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

unn.ua is a Russian propaganda website? Huh. TurboSuperA+_[talk] 09:14, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The article Ukrainian desertion crisis should be merged into this one. The desertion crisis is part of and exacerbates the conscription crisis. Sources also treat them as part of the same issue, e.g. [3][4][5] Desertions are a way to resist conscription, i.e. a deserter’s nightmare is the “conscription patrols”[6]. TurboSuperA+_[talk] 07:00, 15 January 2026 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. TurboSuperA+_[talk] 07:09, 15 January 2026 (UTC)

Oppose. While desertion and conscription criris can sometimes talk about different sides of the same coin, so to speak, they often are about distinct things. Its true desrtion crisis stems from conscription one, but conscription crisis primarily concerns the front end of the manpower pipeline. Its focus is on the state's inability to fairly, efficiently, and legally recruit, mobilize, and train sufficient numbers of personnel. Key topics include mobilization laws, draft evasion, corruption in recruitment centers, exemptions, and the societal/political debate over who should serve.

Desertion crisis concerns the back end of military service. It focuses mostly on the illegal departure of already mobilized and trained soldiers from their units. (Like the notorious and widely described case of 155th Brigade) Article mostly talks about soldiers leaving the front (AWOL), refusal to return from leave, struggles with morale/mental health, state efforts to apprehend deserters, and the legal framework/consequences for deserters. F.Alexsandr (talk) 16:30, 15 January 2026 (UTC)

That's all very well and good, but it is your personal opinion. Do you have any sources that agree with your assessment that the two issues are separate? TurboSuperA+_[talk] 10:37, 16 January 2026 (UTC)

It is you who proposed a merge, and the burden of proof is on you. WP:NOTMERGE advises against merging when separate topics have enough substance to be "expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles"

All three articels you have linked are detailed reports on the desertion crisis, not the conscription crisis, and they actually reinforce the need for separate articles. Mentions of mobilization are included only as background or contributing factors. For example Al Jazeera articel talks about the scale, legal consequences, and personal stories of desertion; RFE sbout the business of smuggling draft dodgers and deserters across the border; The Guardian about the frontline fatigue, poor command, and psychological toll causing soldiers to desert. These sources show the topics are deeply related but substantively different. Merging them would conflate two complex subjects and go againt the guideline against creating broad, 'clunky' articles.

As for your question here is one more article that treats the issues as separate: [7] Desertion and cosncription deal with different core problems: The conscription crisis is framed as a failure of state policy and civilian compliance while the desertion crisis is a failure of military conditions and unit cohesion (catastrophic casualty rates, lack of rotation, poor training) [8] F.Alexsandr (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2026 (UTC)

Support merge of that article, there are not enough standalone references describing a ″Ukrainian desertion crisis″, it should be merged into this or other relevant articles where it can be covered in sections. It doesn't help that it appears to have been used as a WP:POVFORK. --TylerBurden (talk) 18:33, 16 January 2026 (UTC)

Support merge as proposer, and rename article to Ukraine's manpower crisis, as that is also supported by sources.[9] [10] [11] [12] [13] @F.Alexsandr Would you agree that both "conscription crisis" and "desertion crisis" could be considered part of a "manpower crisis"? TurboSuperA+_[talk] 20:47, 16 January 2026 (UTC)

Conscription crisis and desertion crisis are distinct enough to warrant separate articles, inline with WP:NOTMERGE and my response above which you have failed to engage with. Among other things in 2022 Ukrainian mobilization article they are treated as separate issues also, even before I added Main link. I think we need to call other editors who edited this ball of articles to participate. @ApoieRacional: @Cyrobyte: @AlexeyKhrulev: @Marcocapelle: @Hjoim: @Grumpylawnchair: @NikolaiVektovich: @Tobby72: @Poketape: @Smeagol 17: @Flemmish Nietzsche: @Ffaffff: @NHCLS: @Noble Attempt: @XTheBedrockX: @廣九直通車: @Cactinites: @Ymblanter: @Sagotreespirit: @Neyoshadow: @Chidgk1: @Rikieboy1: @Dauzlee: @Tony1: @Whoisjohngalt: @Jebiguess: @LucasBrown: @Teterev53: @Svartner: @WereSpielChequers: @Rodw: @Onel5969: F.Alexsandr (talk) 00:30, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

I can't say that I'm confident enough to make a judgment either way. They are definitely distinct topics, but at the same time, it's also true that they are interlinked parts of a wider manpower crisis. NHCLS (talk) 05:39, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

Support & rename to Ukrainian manpower crisis as per TurboSuperA+ ɴɪᴋᴏʟᴀɪᴠᴇᴋᴛᴏᴠɪᴄʜ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/ᴄᴏɴᴛʀɪʙ) 00:47, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

• I'd much rather not have the male-only "manpower". Tony (talk) 06:05, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

  Manpower is gender-neutral ("man" here means "human"). Smeagol 17 (talk) 09:00, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

  Nope. Tony (talk) 10:25, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

  Yep. https://www.etymonline.com/word/manpower Smeagol 17 (talk) 11:05, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

  It is the terminology sources use, e.g. [14] [15] TurboSuperA+_[talk] 10:30, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

  It works brilliantly: "Women provided the manpower in the domestic economy". Tony (talk) 04:49, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

  Yes it does. Smeagol 17 (talk) 06:08, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

Support a merge of the two. The desertion and conscription crises are part of a wider manpower crisis, of which there is a considerable amount of scholarship written on. Jebiguess (talk) 01:30, 19 January 2026 (UTC)

Oppose - The question is really whether the Ukrainian desertion crisis is still notable, and clearly it is getting more so, rather than less, now that the Ukrainian government is providing official statistics on it, so it is gaining the attention of reliable news sources. The same is true of the conscription crisis. On the quite minor points above, desertion and draft dodging are very different things, the first usually punishable by imprisonment or death, the second often not even a serious crime. On his first day in office, 14 January, Mykhailo Fedorov, Ukraine's new Defense Minister, gave figures for both which had not been given before, some 200,000 AWOL and two million evading conscription. The scholarship mentioned by Jebiguess has almost nothing to say about desertion, as the sources have been so limited. So oppose, on WP:N. Moonraker (talk) 20:58, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose. Tony (talk) 02:24, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

  Because of your gender related arguments above? TylerBurden (talk) 12:02, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

• Comment. The conscription and desertion are different, although related subjects. An alternative solution could be to rename the "desertion crisis" to Desertion from Ukrainian Armed forces. We do not have Desertion from Russian Armed forces, but this is a notable subject, such page could be created as well. My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 30 January 2026 (UTC)